Zidoo 1619 HDR & VS10 Black Level Issues expanded...

Discussion in 'HDD Media player(RTD 1619DR)' started by Markswift2003, Jun 10, 2021.

  1. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Quick note - I noticed I'd got the colours wrong on a couple of settings - I've corrected them now..
     
  2. vddan

    vddan Member

    OK......:cool:
     
    Markswift2003 likes this.
  3. rozel

    rozel Active Member

    Great work Mark, as always :cool: Now I just need to see how these interface with my HDfury Vertex2 ;)
     
  4. Ozzyoz

    Ozzyoz Member

    Thank you ,great work Mark
     
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  5. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Stick with LLDV and you'll be all good.
     
    rozel likes this.
  6. JOE9007

    JOE9007 Member

    Great job Mark ......... TOP TOP;)

    joe
     
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  7. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Got a little bit of news on this today - apparently I was right, it is a SOC issue - The engineers will try to solve the issue, but as VS10 is from Dolby, Zidoo has no permission to modify.

    Hopefully they can find a solution, but at least it has their attention!
     
    Cyclion, skelton, OlivierQC and 2 others like this.
  8. InNursery

    InNursery New Member

    I can’t really understand how they can put on the market a SOC with such a basic request missing. It’s like putting a new car on market and forg0t to put wheel on it.
     
  9. Ozzyoz

    Ozzyoz Member

    we give you ... but not really ... almost
     
  10. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Given that VS10 has been around since 2015, I have to agree with you!
     
  11. ammar11

    ammar11 Active Member

    Thanks Mark! This the clearest explanation of them all, most easiest to understand.

    Just putting this out there, probably nothing everyone haven't already known but just in case it can be useful or if anyone has any comments.. I've been curious about standard DV vs LLDV (and HDR10), you know us home theater geeks can't just leave it alone for one second lol.

    I can't seems to get the Spears and Munsill UHD disc to play nice with menu, so I went into the BDMV/Stream folder and played around with the M2TS files individually. Just know that I don't fully know how they works or what they mean.

    TV is LG OLED65C9, has yet to be professionally calibrated. Viewing in a completely dark room using Cinema picture mode (HDR and DV) with all Picture Options off (Black Level: Low and Real Cinema: On) and all Expert Settings off (Peak Brightness: High).

    Zidoo Z9X using firmware v6.3.2. 4k-modes: 10-bits and Non-4k: 8-bits with HDMI Range: 16-235. MaxCLL/MaxFALL: Enabled, Picture Parameter: Default.

    Colour Clipping

    With this test there are several files with different nits but they generally show the same results but the higher the nits the less the results will be. I can see generally good results up to 4000 nits with my TV.

    upload_2021-6-14_11-41-30.png
    • Using HDR settings Auto -- meaning the files will play in HDR10
      • The "target"circles are a bit thin
      • Color Space Conversion - shows the least number of blinking smaller inner boxes
      • YCbCr Clipping -- shows NO blinking smaller inner boxes at all
    • Using HDR settings VS10 for HDR (LLDV) -- meaning the files will play in LLDV
      • The "target"circles are bit thicker and seems to have more definition than HDR10
      • Color Space Conversion - shows more blinking smaller inner boxes
      • YCbCr Clipping -- shows blinking smaller inner boxes for Y Low, Y High and CR Low but not Cr High
    • Using HDR settings VS10 for HDR (standard DV) -- meaning the files will play in standard DV
      • The "target"circles are a bit thicker and seems to have more definition than HDR10
      • Color Space Conversion - shows even more blinking smaller inner boxes
      • YCbCr Clipping -- shows blinking smaller inner boxes for Y Low, Y High and CR Low but not Cr High
    Note: If the TV's Dynamic Tone Mapping setting is set to ON, the number of blinking smaller inner boxes for Color Space Conversion improves to almost as many as LLDV. But still no blinking smaller inner boxes at all for YCbCr Clipping.

    White Clipping

    This is the same, the HDR10 showing the least number of blinking bars (also improves with Dynamic Tone Mapping setting ON) and the Standard DV showing the most.

    upload_2021-6-14_11-41-47.png

    Colour

    The test pattern wants me set the value too high. I'm using the blue filter. I don't think it's correct the movies become too strong with colours.

    upload_2021-6-14_11-42-36.png

    • Using HDR settings Auto -- meaning the files will play in HDR10
      • Colour: 50
      • Tint: 0
    • Using HDR settings VS10 for HDR (LLDV) -- meaning the files will play in LLDV
      • Colour: 80
      • Tint: G5
    • Using HDR settings VS10 for HDR (standard DV) -- meaning the files will play in standard DV
      • Colour: 70
      • Tint: G3
    Black Level

    The black level test file I can find on this disc does not show steps from 68 to 76, so I use the already downloaded Mehanik HDR10 test patterns from AVSForums.

    upload_2021-6-14_11-45-55.png
    • Using HDR settings Auto -- meaning the files will play in HDR10
      • Highest TV settings before bar 64 starting to be greyish: Brightness 50 Contrast 99 (other settings untouched)
      • I can see the blinking bars down to bar 72
      • Cropped black level test -- the background very slightly greyish
    • Using HDR settings VS10 for HDR (LLDV)
      • Highest TV settings before 64 starting to be greyish: Brightness 51 Contrast 100 (other settings untouched)
      • I can see the blinking bars down to bar 72
      • Cropped black level test -- the background very greyish
    • Using HDR settings VS10 for HDR (standard DV)
      • Highest TV settings before 64 starting to be greyish: Brightness 51 Contrast 100 (other settings untouched)
      • I can see the blinking bars down to bar 76
      • Cropped black level test -- the background very slightly greyish
    Both standard DV (TV-led) and LLDV (player-led) are showing different results. I've decided (at least for now lol) to set my Zidoo HDR setting to VS10 for HDR with compatibility mode as standard DV, with TV colour/tint settings remaining at default 50/0.

    SDR looks good, although using AVS709 test patterns from AVSForums it wants me to set TV setting colour to 63. TV using ISF Expert (Dark Room) picture mode with all Picture Options and Expert Settings off including Peak Brightness: Off. Colour/tint remains at default 50/0.

    Sorry for the long post. :)

    Cheers,
    ammar11

    Disclaimer: The images were taken with a phone camera, not to represent the actual results but just as reference to wich tests were used.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
    Blue Stinger, xskip and Markswift2003 like this.
  12. Whitfield

    Whitfield Active Member

    Can you tell a noob if this SOC issue refers to faulty VS10 hardware in the first place?
    Or am I to understand that it's something that in principle can be solved by (proper) firmware?
     
  13. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Not so much faulty hardware, more faulty programming of the hardware.

    I'm sure it could be solved with firmware, but it depends where the fault lies as to who is able to fix it. At the moment it looks like it'd be down to Dolby or maybe Realtek but we'll have to wait and see.

    The Zidoo devs have pulled stuff out of the bag before with Profile 7 which we all thought wasn't possible, so it's definitely not beyond the realms of possibility.
     
    Whitfield likes this.
  14. mirror

    mirror Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Zidoo TECH Supporter

    Today we have a conference call with Realtek and Dolby engineers on this issue.

    There must be detail loss and distortion when HDR is converted to SDR. Our current way is to saturate the over bright part. If you want to convert HDR to SDR perfectly, you must use dynamic tone mapping. It needs powerful hardware performance. Some hardware I know costs more than US $10000. It's even unimaginable to use 1619dr to do real-time dynamic tone mapping. VS10 engine is to adjust the brightness and color as much as possible to make it look more eye-catching, but it can not avoid physical limitations. If all range tones are not sacrificed in HDR to SDR, that is to say, the larger the range is, the more distortion in the middle part will be, which will cause serious brightness / color discontinuity.

    So no matter what kind of player you use, if you want to get the perfect experience, it is recommended to buy HDR or DV display according to your content. Otherwise, you will have to accept some defects. Unless you really have a dynamic tone mapping hardware

    In addition, we are discussing the possibility of adding some options to let you choose better black performance or more details. Anyway, it is only a possibility, not necessarily implemented
     
  15. ammar11

    ammar11 Active Member

    That makes a lot of sense @mirror . HDR/DV has been around long enough, time to invest on a display that supports it or you’ll be left behind.
     
    Юрий Гандев likes this.
  16. cucnz

    cucnz Active Member

    nice to shed some light on us mushrooms Mirror :) much appreciated
     
  17. Visconti12

    Visconti12 Member

    Thanks Mark & Mirror for the info. Hope Zidoo find a solution to all this mess and get a convenient approach to DV contents which is dominating at the moment.

    The actual only good setting "Using HDR settings Auto -- meaning the files will play in HDR10" ... should be improved soon. And try to reach second stage "Using HDR settings VS10 for HDR (LLDV)" with no blinking issues.
     
  18. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Brilliant news - look forward to hearing about it.

    I know we'll never see perfect conversion, but the Realtek HDR to SDR tone mapping is pretty good, it's just the colour space conversion that's terrible (and that should be the easy bit!).

    With VS10 in both DV/HDR > SDR the tone mapping and the colour space conversion look good but the overall levels are raised.
     
  19. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Can you elaborate?
     
  20. Visconti12

    Visconti12 Member

    This is the issue which is more visible for me!!
     

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