New firmware v2.0.34 version for ZIDOO X9S release

Discussion in 'X9S Official Firmware Releases' started by mirror, Jul 4, 2018.

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  1. giangi76

    giangi76 Member

    The disinformation is because you were stating that Full range is better. I explained why it's wrong and you continue to say it's better and that video is subjective when it is not (and I also explained that)
    Why the choice? Easy. Zidoo is based on Android and you can also do other things with it (like web surfing or Apps or watch Pictures), and if you connect it to a monitor you may want to use HDMI Full Range RGB. It's an option...that's all.... Same for TVs or VPRs...depends on what you use it for!
    The different prices of TVs depend on the performance: a 4500$ TV will give you better performance in terms of accuracy, black level, white peak (luminance), color gamut, ecc... The cheaper one won't be as good...you can try and set the best performance as possibile (applying to the standards) but it will be just a compromise = the best you can get out of the panel / electronics of that specific TV. There's no shit...it's all about standards and trying to be as close as possibile to them (that's why we have differences in the price).
     
  2. giangi76

    giangi76 Member

    Sure it is!! You are absolutely right! But this has nothing to do with video and setting correctly and within the standards our products (source and TV)
     
  3. PacoRabanne

    PacoRabanne Well-Known Member Beta test group

    giangi76, are you italian (as me) ?
     
  4. giangi76

    giangi76 Member

    Yes, why?
     
  5. godalmighty

    godalmighty Active Member

    i`m using LG tv so like all know the dark scene will look greyish when watch in dark room
    if in zidoo i set color range to full range, i got the deep black, but the detail cannot push out from the dark even i lower my gamma and set my local dimming to low :(
    so it better for me to stick in limited range

    btw i love the update firmware, the playback gui look simple and mature :p
     
  6. giangi76

    giangi76 Member

    Hi, I suppose you have an LCD TV, and the greyish of the IPS panel used by LG in dark room is absolutely normal (especially with HDR content). The limit is the technology and the backlighting with local dimming (I suppose LED Edge). There's nothing you can do and you've set your TV correctly and the best way you could! ;)
     
  7. 3DBuff

    3DBuff Active Member

    Hey @giangi76 great info on video standards but this is not one of those threads "Who else wants to get calibrated. Here is my number..." ;)

    I'm with @Sarco and @Nice Monkey on this. Watching movies on TV or projectors screen is not scientific. Human eye and brain do not respond to light exactly the same way sensors do. Eyes quickly adopt to light conditions. Coming from bright sunny day into closed room with incandescent bulb you will see correct colors within seconds. Cameras have to get white balance adjusted or you end up with orange image. There is huge variations between studios, disk mastering and the way directors intended. Not every equipment and light conditions are the same. Calibrated HDR TV with output of 2,000 nits is OK in direct sunlight backyard watching with sunglasses or as window store display. I can't imagine anybody that could stand it more than couple of minutes in a black room. Any full blast of light would blind you for few minutes not to mention that you can see near black details when light output is too high for bright spots.

    I saw calibrated TVs with glowing blacks because this is what the light sensor could see. I'm not against calibration but at the end you watching screen with your own eyes not through reference light sensor. You need to like what you see and not relay on someone telling you it is calibrated and has to be right ;) If the TV looks better with proper tone mapping using full range on HDR than it it correct for this TV. You recommended yourself to set Dynamic Contrast to LOW for LG OLED E7 series as better image but it is against any calibration principles.
     
  8. giangi76

    giangi76 Member

    I never do calibration for consumer customers...so you're way off base! And by the way, tell me one post where I suggested calibration....I just tried to explain how things work and how to best set the Zidoo and very generally the TV...that's all.

    Since you speak of calibration, you should know that Daylight and Darkroom presets / calibrations are there to avoid the issues you correctly described (you need different gamma, different backlighting, ecc.)

    With HDR you will never have 2.000 nits or even more on full screen (100% screen white peak for example), but only a small portion of the screen and just for a few seconds (like a flash ligth or a ray of sun)....and that is intended to mimic reality and not to be annoying. I already saw 4.000 nits peak displays and it was absolutely astonishing....if possibile I would get it tomorrow!

    You totally misunderstood the low Dynamic Contrast of the LG 7 OLED...that's not Dynamic Contrast (I would never enable it!!) it's a processing that converts static HDR metadata into dynamic ones...LG has putten that fuction in the wrong place, they understood and on LG 8 OLED (this year's series) they gave the function a propper name and setting. So it's not against any kind of calibration principle, because it actually does a very good job on the EOTF (gamma) tone-mapping curve.

    Anyway, I'm sorry I tried to help some of you sharing my knowledge. I will never do this mistake again!

    Good luck with your settings ;)
     
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  9. 3DBuff

    3DBuff Active Member

    @giangi76 don’t be offended. We are all here for the good of sharing the knowledge and making Zidoo a batter box.

    Cheers :)
     
    godalmighty likes this.
  10. 3DBuff

    3DBuff Active Member

    Quick comment on the screen brightness. My old LG OLED65E6 has max of 650 nits according to some reviews. I ended up dialing down OLED light output to 45% only for HDR night watching. Those small areas like flush light, ray of sun, reflections of the glosy surface overpower the rest of the screen and get rally annoying. I wouldn't trade 3D for best HDR ;)
     
  11. godalmighty

    godalmighty Active Member

    yes, lcd tv but lucky me,with a pretty good score of local dimming score in rtings:p
    when i play a HDR content, i set dynamic contrast of my tv to Mid coz if i set it to High after a while watching, my eyes get a little bit juicy:(
    if i set it to Low the picture not that stunning since it was a HDR content
    so you think for me the best setting with my X9S is, color range: Limited, color depth: 10bit and color space: Auto

    sorry this is out of topic :(
    do you know that oled C8 have a defect panel now
    coz my friend got a almost half black when try to do screen test with 50%grey pattern (in rtings) so it was very annoying when watch a dark scene :(
    yes. me too, i wont hurt my eyes just for a very bright scenes
    maybe i`m not that kind of user that like a peak brightness that high just like recently tv got
     
  12. giangi76

    giangi76 Member

    I'll try to be a little less passionate in my answers... @3DBuff @godalmighty about peak HDR brightness: I understand what you mean, but the truth is we have been used for so many years to the "low" dynamics of SDR pictures, that HDR pictures can appear "too much" (I really get that)....I think (and this is really my personal opinion) it will be just a matter of time and also colorists / cinematographers will progressively understand how to make the most of HDR...and things will get always better thanks to dynamic metadata HDR (as Dolby Vision or HDR10+) where the colorists can set the best peak luminance they have in mind frame by frame...and this is a huge step forward if exploited properly. All this to say that you have to be very carefull with the dimming of the display brightness (backlighting for LCD and OLED light), because not all HDR contents are mastered the same way. This could seem usefull and enjoyable with "agressive" HDR content, but a "disaster" with "soft" HDR content (as Blade Runner 2049, for example)...and you should know that dimming the overall brightness of the display has a huge impact on the tone-mapping (EOTF gamma curve) and also white balance....and the HDR presets of the TVs have that specific backlighting / OLED light level because it's optimized to have the most accurate EOTF gamma curve possibile for that kind of display. So this means that if you prefer a "dimmer" HDR feeling, you are absolutely free to do it, but you should actually recalibrate that preset to verify and correct the changes you made. Now I perfectly understand that's not easy and not everyone has the knowledge or can afford this...but this is how things should be done. What I usually suggest is to choose the best preset a TV has, remove all the "stupid" image processing that may be turned on and just stick to that!...it's probably the best picture you can get from that TV!

    Let me also tell you something about SDR: movies are mastered for big cinema screen with 15 fL of brightness (that's the standard for DCI SDR cinema). On our TVs that should be around 100-130 nits max in dark room. Now what's happening is that most of the TV manufacturers are actually setting the "True Cinema" presets at higher levels (up to 300 nits), probably to give SDR content a more "dynamic" feeling...but this is actually not accurate and this is why Christopher Nolan asked a few days ago the TV manufacturers to put a "Reference Mode" preset (Dark Room obviously, not for Daylight) to be able to really show movies as intended by a director...and I totally agree! We then may don't like the picture feeling of a specific movie, but we should "argue" that with the director of that movie and not mess up with the settings of the TV or VPR.

    I hope you got my point. Cheers ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  13. giangi76

    giangi76 Member

    First af all, I'm happy you read Rtings: they are really very good and very professional!
    Yes this is the best setting, not just for you, but for anyone with an HDR TV that accepts 10-12 bit / BT2020 / 422-444 chroma / up to 60 fps content with 18 Gbps HDMI port.

    I've tested the C8 myself and it didn't have any kind of defection. I don't understand what you mean with "almost half black", could you please clarify?
     
  14. PacoRabanne

    PacoRabanne Well-Known Member Beta test group

    Curiosity...
    Maybe I'll send you PM in italian... (anche no!)
     
  15. HaoSs

    HaoSs Well-Known Member Beta test group Contributor

    guys, new firmware is out :p test that, move discussion there, no one will pay any more attention on older firmwares
     
  16. godalmighty

    godalmighty Active Member

    @giangi76
    maybe i`m just old :( and cannot compete my eyes to adapt that bright
    but i trully love the detail made from hdr content, i think it was balancing the gamma and black level so i cant see more detail from the dark scene

    yes i love rtings coz they look so profesional with their equipments and test result is really helpful
    and crazy too to make a experiment about burn in on their OLED tv :D

    grey5%_40%light.PNG this one is 5%grey pattern with 40 at oled light
    grey5%_0%light.PNG this one with 0 oled light
    it was LG 55C8 and it was brand new
     
  17. 3DBuff

    3DBuff Active Member

    We started this TV topic here and we continue it here in this thread ;)

    Rtings.com is very good site for reference only but I wouldn't relay on their opinion.
    They gave my TV LG OLED65E6 motion score of 9.3 out of 10 and motion interpolation 10 out of 10!. When someone asked in comments about the pixelation and artifacts when using motion processing the answer he got was to reduce the effect of motion processing DeJuder to value of 2 almost disabling it all together! What a joke! You don't mark score 10 out of 10 and to tell people not to use it when they see issues.

    They did some specific tests and compared results. This does not eliminate true sit down in front of it with lights out and watch a good movie and see how you like it couple of hours later ;)

    HDR looks amazing in bright showroom when playing short HDR demo clips at 60fps or higher. When you watch HDR movie at home 24fps conversion from cinema film with lights out it's a whole different experience.




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  18. giangi76

    giangi76 Member

    I'm afraid you are confusing Motion Interpolation with Motion Blur. Rtings has a very interesting testing approach and they explain it with all the details on the weight they give on various aspects. I suggest (to understand better what they do) you read these links:
    https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion
    https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/motion-interpolation-soap-opera-effect

    I really don't understand why the experience should change between an HDR demo at 60 fps and a movie at 24fps. I like both and I enjoy both in dark room. I really don't have any kind of problem and it has actually become "difficult" for me to watch SDR content....I already got too used to HDR contents and hate when a good movies doesn't get released in Ultra HD Blu-ray (Den of Thieves or Molly's Game, for example). But this is me, apparently for you it's different and I get that. And by the way, there's no frame-rate conversion to 24 fps from cinemas, because it's 24 fps also in theaters. There's still very few HDR movies in theater because DCI hasn't yet defined a standard for cinema theaters (apart from Dolby Cinema with Dolby Vision, but that's not an "official" standard, and Eclair which is an HDR processing that can be used with some 4K Sony theater VPRs). Just give it time (years I think) and you'll see that HDR will become common also in theater (although we will need big Video Wall LED displays, instead of VPRs to get the right amount of luminance, black level and contrast). The truth is that fo the first time, a consumer standard is ahead and better than the professional (cinema theater) one. And to be clear: HDR is not post-processing, but just a different color correction of informations that are already there in the master (film or digital). SDR has always been just a technological limitation...
     
  19. 3DBuff

    3DBuff Active Member

    @giangi76 you really refuse to get it and you say you have OLED E7 series. Read the articles for what they are.
    Here is the link to E6 review:
    https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/e6-oled

    In the middle of the article you find motion rating and testing.
    9.3 Motion
    10 Motion Interpolation

    Nobody is talking here about blur. Have you used motion interpolation on your E7 at all? Didn't you see hundreds or thousands of forum pages about the OLED E6 / E7 motion issues, setting and best ways?

    HDR discussion is boring at this point. You refuse to get it. HDR demo clips typically 60fps were done on best video cameras in single pass and look very impressive. Movies that you get on UHD disk were processed from film material and they are lacking quality to look that good. Couple of flashes here and there is not cutting if for me. I'm sure technology is on the right path and one day we will get there.
     
  20. giangi76

    giangi76 Member

    You don't know the technical definition of the words and it's me who doesn't get it? Ok, I'll try for the last time: motion interpolation is just the capacity of a panel / electronics to at least double the frame-rate (from 30 to at least 60 fps, for example)....and LG 6 OLED series (but also 7 and 8 series) handle motion interpolation perfectly and that's why it got 10 (I agree!!!).
    Rtings don't use TrueMotion (in case of LG Tvs) in the evaluation of motion with movies, because you should not use it with cinematic content! And here again they're right and I agree! That's why I suggested you read how they analyze motion, because they explain that very clearly! They are serious, acurate and respect what standards say and they evaluate that. You want to use motion processing (not motion intepolation) with movies? It's your choice.
    The artifacts you see with your OLED TV (that I also see with my C7 OLED) when you activate TrueMotion is due mainly to judder and blur and NOT to interpolation. But as you say, it's me who doesnt' get it...OKKKK!!!!!!

    Yes, you're right, it's become boring, because you still think HDR is processing, when it's not! It's just color correction! It would be nice if people tried to learn new things instead of always being sure of what they say...this would also help you understand better what you're watching and why it has that "feeling"...but as you say, I wouldn't dare bother you with interesting knowledge....you already know everything and seem to be happy....You know what? So am I!!!!!

    Cheers! ;)
     
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