EDID thread (RTD1619BPD players)

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@Markswift2003 I am hoping you can help me with my investigation/optimization of DV picture quality with my setup.
I have the Z9X Pro connected through receiver Sony DH590 and then to Sony A8H OLED tv. Picture in DV has been an improvement from the previous setup with the ShieldTV, but still not hitting the same level as when I play DV files through the native AndroidTV apps (Plex/Kodi) on the tv itself.
I think it is a known drawback with Sony's player-led DV restriction, which my A8H suffers from unfortunately. Vincent Teoh has made a good video explaining the concept and results, and I am sure you have heard some complain about the same already... Since then, Sony has implemented TV-led DV, but I am not ready to buy a newer panel just yet for that feature!

I still decided to investigate if there was a way to improve the LLDV output from the Zidoo so that I can get closer to the color/brightness obtained from native tv apps. I downloaded the EDID through the Z9X (see attached) and fooled around in Deltacast, trying to find the min/max values for DV, without any luck. I figured I could play around with those values (and possibly the primaries as well) to get a better LLDV output.
I tried the Sony X8000H EDID available from the short list on the Z9X, and it seemed to have improved colors/brightness, but it created other issues and prevented full testing.

So in summary, if you could have a look at the attached EDID and comment on your findings. I love the Zidoo as a unit and am having a hard time getting past the difference in PQ... "once you've seen it, you can't unsee it!".

 

HDR, Dolby Vision included, is not about brightness at all. The average APL (average picture level) in an HDR image should not be that much more than the APL in an SDR image. It's only the specular highlights and dynamic range that are improved with HDR (assuming the same colour space) - so ok, an explosion may look brighter and more detailed, but don't look at HDR as "brighter", when used correctly, it isn't.

Your EDID shows the Sony has a maximum nit value of 670 and changing this value in the EDID may increase perceived brightness at the expense of specular highlights (ie less tone mapping):

DV Version: 2
DV DM Version: v3.x
DV Interface: LLDV 12-bit 422
YUV422 12bit: Not Supported
Global Dimming: Not Supported
Backlight Control: Not Supported
RED Primary: Rx=0.680 Ry=0.320
GREEN Primary: Gx=0.266 Gy=0.691
BLUE Primary: Bx=0.148 By=0.059
MAX/MIN Luminance: 670 / 0 nits

Try the attached EDIDs - they might make a difference, they might not - I've set max nits to 1000 and 2000 which means a less agressive gamma curve is used so less roll off at the top end - more APL in the middle.... Theoretically!

 

Very informative, I always appreciate reading your responses. Referring to contrast instead of brightness might also have been more appropriate, in order to convey how the PQ differs between the internal app and external source playback methods. But your explanation makes a lot of sense.

I have tried the 2 provided EDIDs briefly this evening. I need more time to analyze, although I can say there seems to be an improvement, not yet reaching the PQ of the internal app output.

I am still hopeful, and very thankful for your help!
Updates will be provided.

UPDATE:

It took a while before finding time to do proper testing and comparison. On my setup, with the Sony A8H and the 2000-nit custom EDID provided and loaded on the Z9X Pro, it helped getting closer to the image obtained from the Kodi app installed directly on the TV... but it really isn't the same quality.

I am speaking specifically about the picture quality when playing dolby vision remux files. The picture settings on the TV are the same, whether it is internal app or HDMI input. There is just a noticeable difference in colors, contrast and details, largely in favor of the playback from the TV app (kodi, but also plex as I have tested it as well).

Of course, this comes with much disappointment, as there is so much to gain from using an external device, such as lossless audio, more responsive UI, subtitle compatibility, video codec support. I am torn on what to do next. I've seen many posts about how dolby vision is a PITA. I am tempted to take the road of HDR and disabling dolby vision on the external devices (zidoo and shield), and see how it compares. Nothing to lose, right?

It's a journey and certainly an entertaining one!

Thanks @Markswift2003 again for the help. If you have more ideas, suggestions or rants, I always enjoy reading your comments. Cheers!

 

any word on next firmware?

 

Nope.

 

Hello everyone, I bought a z9x pro last month to replace the my nvidia shield pro that I was not happy with the image quality and the z9x pro improves it alot!

Here is my setup:
Zidoo z9x pro - Samsung 990D 2024 - Projector Viewsonic PX728-4K HDR/HLG

Here is my current zidoo settings:
Color Settings:
4K-50-60hz: PriorityYUV420 10BIT
4K-23-30hz: PriorityYUV444 10BIT
Non4K: PriorityYUV444 10BIT
HDMI Color Range: 16-235
Deep Color: OFF
HDMI Signal: Enhanced format

HDR: Dolby Vision VS10 Engine(Output SDR) - This is by far the setting for the colors in my opinion, but lack on dark scenes, the colors of the other settings are better on dark scenes but are washed out on daylight scenes.

Dolby Vision compatible mode: LLDV

Custom EDID: BT.2020 LLDV EDID - I think is the best I tried.

I don't know if I can get better image out to my projector with a Custom EDID, only "complains" I have are the dark scenes.
I will leave 2 EDID that I exported with the projector connected directly to the zidoo(edid_PX728-4K) and connected to the soundbar(edid_samsung990d_PX728-4K).

Thank you for your help

 

There's no point using that EDID unless you're outputting LLDV.

The Samsung would benefit from that but you'd need an HDFury Vertex2 to get the Samsung to kick into its HDR mode.

Using VS10 to output SDR there's no need nor benefit in using a custom EDID.

I don't know anything about that projector and certainly don't know if it would benefit from LLDV but VS10 is probably a good choice.

 

Thank you for your response.

I would like to try VS10 LLDV if possible.

I don't know if this info helps:
The projector is advertised has a RGBRGB 2000 lumens, but output a max of 1890 lumens based on the reviews I found.
I can select HDR mode or SDR mode on menu.

 

Sorry to bother you again, but after re reading your reply, you said that my samsung would need a HDFury Vertex2 to kick into its HDR Mode. I dind't undestart that because the samsung is a sound bar.

Yesterday I have some free time and make a few more tests.

z9x pro > hdmi2.1 - soundbar(samsung) - e-arc> projector

HDR MODE: LLDV
Custom EDID: BT2020 LLDV

The projector jumps into HDR mode but the colors where too bright and washed out.

Can a custom edid help or I really need a vertex 2(can buy it from amazon to test).

Thank you

 

Sorry - my bad - something got lost in the mix there - yes, ignore that.

You only need a Vertex 2 or similar if you can't switch the PJ into its HDR mode when sending LLDV.

The LLDV signal does not contain an HDR SEI message so the PJ will just treat it as SDR.

So you can either switch the PJ into HDR manually or use a Vertex 2 etc which can be set to send an HDR message when it detects LLDV thus switching the display into HDR mode.

Your description of "the colors where too bright and washed out" sounds like the Zidoo is sending LLDV but the PJ is treating it as SDR as expected (well, the "too bright" doesn't make sense, but the "washed out" does).

 

Thank you, that make sense.

Do any of the other hd fury products also allow dolby vision for a projector but are a bit cheaper?

 

Yes, otherwise you won't be able to use LLDV.

The great thing about a Vertex is you can load an LLDV EDID and match the HDR message to it - so I would recommend you load a 400nit LLDV EDID and use a 400nit HDR message so the values match and the Dolby Processor takes car of tone mapping above 400nits and the projector takes care of tone mapping below 400nits.

I would go Zidoo > Vertex > Soundbar > PJ

 

Perfect!

Do any of the other hd fury products also allow dolby vision for a projector but are a bit cheaper?

 

It's not a case of "allowing" Dolby Vision - a custom EDID in the Zidoo will do that. It's a case of how the HDR SEI message is handled.

The Vertex 2 is the cheapest that allows sending an HDR message if LLDV is received. The original Vertex (or Integral 2) will do it but only on a permanent basis.

Maybe you should do some research on HDFury's website and Discord server before you buy...

 

I reach HDFury Discord and asked them some questions.
They told me that I should go for Arcana 1 since it's for only 1 device and my projector only support HDMI2.0b, if it was for more than 1 devices I should buy the vertex2. I found a great deal on arcana 1 for 110€.
Later this week I will try some edid on the first page and see how it goes.

Thank you again for your help

 

Yeah, I always forget about the Arcana - it's a good set and forget device and that's a very good price.

 

Hoping for a bit of guidance to get a "set and forget" configuration. Picked up a Z9X pro to replace a MadVR PC feeding a Sony XW5000ES projector, which supports HDR. While I "think" I grasp most of the configuration choices, cannot pretend to understand it all. Considering between the three below options, hoping for a bit of guidance:

1. Use VS10 to output SDR and live within BT.709 for everything
2. Use VS10 to output HDR + a spoofed BT.2020 EDID in Zidooo to limit brightness to say 160 nits? Would this eliminate the need for a HDFury in the middle?
3. Use VS10 to output HDR + Vertex device.

Just trying to understand the tradeoffs between the various scenarios. I know ultimately I need to use the eye test but also like to understand what's going on technically behind the scenes.

 

As long as you can manually set the PJ into its HDR mode, I'd try LLDV.

Use either a 400nit or 1000nit LLDV EDID and set the PJ into HDR mode.

Without MaxCLL/FALL/MDL info most displays will default to a 1000nit curve in HDR so that would match a 1000nit LLDV EDID.

Ideally you'd want to use something like a 400nit EDID but that means getting the PJ to understand that and that's where an HDFury device comes into it.

But try a 400nit EDID anyway and see which you prefer.

Trying to match the EDID to the PJs capabilities (probably less than 100nits) doesn't really work because although tone mapping will theoretically be good, because of the nature of PQ Gamma, the image will be too dim because pretty much all of the gamma is compressed.

 

Thank you and appreciate the response. Looks like I indeed can, manually force the projector into HDR10....is the suggestion here:

VS10 (Output HDR)+ Priority LLDV (Player led) + 400Nit BT.2020 EDID in Zidoo

For my ignorance, what is the missing configuration if I continue without a vertex in this equation?

I would also want to turn off any further processing by the sony in this case, correct (Dynamic HDR, which I believe is the Sony's "tonemapping")?