Vs10 engine parameters

Hi, I really like the Vs10 engine and specially the sdr to hdr (lldv) feature. I read some test on avsforum about the Zidoo and the conclusion is that Vs10 engine should always be on because it compensate some Realtek player issue specially on color banding.

So I have checked the lldv always option in hdr settings. But in the UI and in app like YouTube I don't find the result really good, I have the impression the Vs10 engine is only used in the Zidoo player and the sdr to lldv in UI is just over saturating images.

Is there a way to a enable lldv convertion for every videos I read in the Zidoo player (sdr or hdr) but not in the UI?

 

Sorry - no, there's no way enable LLDV for local playback only.

Which EDID are you using in the Diva and what are the colour/gamma settings in the projector? Specifically, are the colour primaries matched?

I have a JVC projector in one room and a Samsung flat screen in another and use LLDV full time in both rooms. I don't see any problems with the look of the GUI - there is certainly no over saturation.

 

I use the EDID you gave me some time ago here :

 

Don't you think such option would be usefull ? Because I don't care to upscale my youtube videos or my photos to DV. And my projector make more noise in this mode for nothing (it's really useless in the UI).
I think it could be great to have the choice, and I don't think it's a really difficult one, they already have had a lot of options in the hdr settings. The behavior should be the same as "VS10 for SDR" but something like "VS10 for all player content".

 

Ha! Memory like a sieve!

Certainly not for me personally - maybe others can chime in?

The reason I use LLDV is simply because it allows me to have the projector in one mode so that virtually eliminates resyncs (other than very occasional frame rate or resolution changes).

I have my projector in low lamp mode throughout so no noise increase (also it's in another room behind glass so I can't hear it anyway) and use a fairly bright gamma curve so all content looks, to my eye, as it should with LLDV.

I'm curious why your GUI looks over saturated - if the projector is in BT.2020 and you use that EDID, with LLDV it shouldn't be.

 

I gonna try to take some pictures, it is really visible on app icon in the home menu.

 

That rings a bell - I have an idea what might be going on - I'll wait until you send a pic...

 

Ok - try this one:

 

Thanks, I gonna try it this evening what do you changed in the edid (just for personal culture)

 

When you said about the app icon I remembered I saw an issue a while back where the home screen icons had an "overblown" look - not like saturation, but as if highlights were blown out.

That was due to TmaxPQ in the Dolby block being higher than the target nits in the display (TmaxPQ is Dolby's name for the max nits).

So I just looked at that EDID I gave you and it had an error in one of the bytes - TmaxPQ was showing as 1400 nits rather than 1000 - my mistake!! Really sorry about that

Presumably you have the Diva sending a custom HDR string on the output to the projector (with "Use custom HDR for TX0 and TX1 when input is LLDV") based on 1000 nits so the two don't match. To be honest, 400nits shouldn't make that much difference, but it certainly needed correcting!

This new EDID is corrected to 1000nits and should therefore match your custom HDR string and that icon should look perfect!!

And then I panicked a bit!!

EDID 10 on the newer HDFury devices is one I wrote for them and I just thought have I done the same with that!!?? But no (phew!) it's ok - that EDID is correct... So I've no idea where the error occurred, but it's all fixed now...

I've also changed the file in the original post just in case someone else comes across it...

 

Thank you for the explaination, I gonna test it and send you a before and after picture to see any improvement.

 

I tried your new edid but it doesn't do anything you can see the comparison between auto settings and always lldv.

 

Well I'm kind of glad that it's not my fault, but it looks like it may be down to how your projector is handling HDR.

So the brighter image is with an 1000nit LLDV signal into the Diva but as far as the projector is concerned it's 1000nit HDR10 due to a custom HDR string?

The second darker image is SDR.

The SDR imagery is always a little bit darker with these boxes, but not normally as pronounced as your images show.

Can you compare the LLDV signal to "Mapping HDR10" in the HDR settings - I would expect them both to be similar.

These are from my test system. This first image is in SDR (HDR on "Auto"):



This one is with 12-bit 422 1000nit BT.2020 LLDV with a 1000nit custom HDR string on the output (note I have the Vertex OSD showing RX infor rather than TX info so it shows LLDV not HDR):



Also, in case you wonder why the LLDV image is 4K30 and not 4K60, I've restricted the EDID to 400MHz.

 

Here is the result with hdr10 mapping option.

Maybe it's my projector settings but in movie the result is really good, no overblown visible.

The hdr10 mapping give me the same result in UI but the result in movie is a bit washed-out compared to lldv option.
I'm pretty sure the Vs10 engine is used only for movies but not for UI which would explain such result. Maybe some guy from zidoo could explain us how sdr conversion works in UI or in the Zidoo player.
The diva send image through my denon which send it to the projector, maybe I could try to send just sound to the denon and directly send image to my projector.
There is so much way to get this wrong, like it could be the Zidoo, the amplifier, the projector settings, the hdfury settings...
I still think it's a zidoo issue because everything looks good while playing movie.

 

If you set LLDV in HDR settings then the VS10 engine is processing everything, gui included otherwise it wouldn't be able to output the gui in LLDV.

As I say with both my Samsung flatscreen setup and projector, there is little difference between the output of the gui in either SDR, HDR or LLDV - there is a difference, but it's minimal - SDR always looks a bit darker and less defined - but nothing like the difference you show in the first two pictures and certainly not something you notice when it stays in LLDV permanently.

After exiting the Diva, as far as your projector knows, "Mapping HDR" and "LLDV" signals are the same (other than MaxCLL and MaxFALL) so it stands to reason that they will look the same, and that also eliminates VS10 as the issue so it's got to be something in the way the projector is handling that signal. Unfortunately I don't know anything about that projector so can't make any suggestions where to poke around in the menu.

As you say, the variables are many, so as always, it's a process of elimination. Unless you just use a darker background wallpaper on the gui

 

OK, I gonna try some things and compare results :
- Removing diva and denon amp from the chain and use HDR10 mapping to see the result
- if the result is still overblown it comes in fact from my projector or the zidoo parameters
- if the issue is gone I gonna add the denon and then the diva to investigate
Thank you for your help, it really precious

 

If it's my projector maybe I could also try our EDID which restrict the content to 400MHz.

 

Wouldn't make a difference to brightness - all that does is disallow 594MHz signals, ie 4K60 444 or 422.

You could try the attached one though. This has a TmaxPQ of 400nits in the Dolby Block just to see what difference it makes...

 

Is the Overlay with the informations about the picture from the Vertex?

 

Yes it is