I was excited when the v6.4.40 firmware came out a year and a half ago, but after installing it, I was still experiencing pretty bad black clipping. I spent several days trying to figure it out, but to no avail. @Markswift2003 thought it might just be hitting the limitations of my display, so after a few days, I pretty much accepted that was just the way it was. Well, for some reason a few days ago, I decided to try putting the DV MediaLight Spears&Munsil Shadow Detail file on a flash drive and plugged it straight into my TCL R646 TV. As soon as it came on, I was amazed that it looked absolutely perfect! Sorry, my pics came out much worse than I expected, but: Spoiler: Z9X to TV Spoiler: Flash Drive to TV Both pics are from the exact same camera settings, tv settings, and room lighting conditions (and look a lot worse than it actually looks in the room). From the Z9X using VS10 Engine for all content, which I prefer, it gets down to about 85, but I can just barely make out a tiny bit down to 83. From 82 and lower is completely clipped. From the flash drive I can see it resolving all the way down to 65 which really surprised me. From looking at those two pics, it looks to me like there might be some kind of HDMI range problem, as the top pic from the Z9X looks quite a bit more washed out compared to the much better contrast and color of the flash drive pic, but I can't find any adjustment in my TV for HDMI range. Other than the standard picture adjustment options (contrast, brightness, color, etc.), all I can find is HDMI mode which has HDMI 1.4/HDMI 2.1/Auto. I have it set to HDMI 2.1 but tried all of the other options with no change. I have the Z9X set up exactly per @Markswift2003 recommended settings, except for using the VS10 Engine for all content in the HDR settings, and I use TV Led under DV compatability mode. I have my Z9X hooked into my Denon X4500H AVR by HDMI, which is output to my TCL R646 TV by HDMI. I also tried plugging the Z9X directly into the TV with the same results. Both edids are attached. I struggled with this for about a week straight when v6.4.40 came out a year and a half ago, and now I've spent the last three days nearly non-stop trying to figure it out again, and have tried many more things than what I've mentioned here, but I would dearly appreciate anyone who can help me to resolve this issue.
Ok, really odd. But interesting in the light of a recent issue we saw with an LG C3. My test Z9X is on v6.4.65 and the one I use in my cinema is on v6.4.42 (I had no reason to update as it works perfectly). Both are therefore newer than v6.4.40 but I looked back at my notes and all black clip issues had been fixed before v6.3.55 (Nov '21) so I can confidently say this isn't an issue with the Z9X, or at least not directly. The first thing to note is that the way HDMI deals with Dolby Vision signals is a different mechanism to the way they are dealt with internally as a direct file so it is no surprise that there can be a difference between HDMI handling and USB handling of the same file. Next thing to say, and I mean this with the greatest of respect, is that TCL displays are kind of well known for flakiness with DV. As an example, a typical LG will have a maximum luminance defined in the Dolby Block of 700nits and minimum of 0 or 0.001 nits. These figures define how bright and how dim a display can go. The figures from your EDID are pretty awful, Max nits of 372 and minimum of 0.045. The minimum nits is particularly problematic as it's an order of magnitude higher than most and then some. EB:01:46: D0:00:4D:4E:4A:72:5A:77:76 DV Version: 2 DV DM Version: reserved DV Interface: standard and low latency 422 12bit 2160p60: supported YUV422 12bit: supported Global Dimming: supported Backlight Control: not supported, default 100 nits RED Primary: 0.680, 0.305 GREEN Primary: 0.223, 0.676 BLUE Primary: 0.152, 0.055 MAX/MIN Luminance: 372 / 0.045 nits The 372 nits isn't really a huge issue - most content is way under that anyway and it just means either or the TV will tone map any specular highlights above that depending on whether Player Led or TV Led DV is chosen. The o.045 nits is a bit of an issue - that's almost into LED projector territory and kind of explains the clipping - whether we can fix it depends on whether that EDID is a true reflection of the TV's capabilities. So try this EDID - it's the Denon one so you keep all the sound modes and all I've done is change min nits in the Dolby Block to zero: https://mega.nz/file/Mb53SZpB#2u3g4icnoridEM4tuyPsXyPhkHU_cQGDXnF6s6W4ZqM Try both TV Led and Player LED DV.
First, I forgot to mention I was on v6.4.62 since it came out (exactly a year ago today!), but got the v6.4.65 a couple of days ago when I was throwing everything I could at fixing things. Secondly, that EDID did the trick!!! In TV Led, I now get a nice smooth roll-off down to 68 with DV, 66 with HDR10, and 65 with SDR. It actually does appear to be a smoother gradient as it goes from high to low than before too. For some reason when using Player Led, it is awful. I can barely see 105 and 104 flashing, but I prefer TV Led so that doesn't matter. I tried a couple of my torture test dark scenes to see how they looked. The beginning of Star Wars Episode I, as soon as the opening crawl fades out and the camera pans down to the ship flying, and near the end of IT part 1, when the kids all hug down in the sewer right before it fades to black. Before, both of those scenes made my backlight have a terrible spasm for a second or two. I actually thought that going from 0.045 nits down to zero might make it worse, but it did the exact opposite. The SW just barely has a hint of what before was awful, and the IT is a perfectly smooth fade. As far as my TV, yes I knew that TCL was a cheaper brand, but I'm poor lol. I did get the 'Flagship' 6 Series model though, and the main reason I decided to get it (other than price) is because it scored really well in the RTINGS review. I really don't understand how my TV has such lousy EDID info, as in their testing, it peaks out at almost 1100 nits on some of the measurements. Which leads me to another question. Is an EDID a completely fixed set of information that is hard-coded into a chip that is locked and unchangeable, or could it be changed by way of a firmware update? Because I did something that I maybe shouldn't have. My specific TV model hasn't had a firmware update in a very long time, but the newer Q8 series, which is apparently just an updated version of my TV has had several new updates that addresses some of the problems with backlight flickering and screwy black levels etc. Well, several people on AVS with my exact R646 model have used the new Q8 firmware and said it worked great and made their picture better, so of course I tried it too recently, but can't tell much difference. Could this have messed up my EDID info? I have already figured out how to flash an IMG file to roll back for my actual model. I was also curious if there were any discrepancies between the Z9X-TCL and the Z9X-Denon-TCL EDIDs, and I guess depending on your opinions of all the stuff I've said today, would it be possible to get an EDID or two that is exactly the same as the one you shared with me, but with max nits of 1000 and 1100, since that is what my TV appears to be measured at by Rtings? I figure that if fixing the minimum from 0.045 to zero fixed that, maybe doing the same for the max might help too? I don't know if making/changing EDIDs is an in depth involving process or just a quick backspace-retype kind of thing, and I really didn't mean to blather on forever, but I just wanted to try to get it all squared away once and for all so that I don't have to keep bugging you over and over too many more times. As far as how you read/make/change EDIDS Spoiler One last thing: "Backlight Control: not supported, default 100 nits" My TV has a backlight adjustment setting that says 'automatically adjust backlight and contrast based on individual areas of the screen to optimize picture performance' and has a choice of 'Off/Low/High' so why does it say 'not supported'? I've had this TV and Zidoo for just over two years, and today is the very first day that the blacks aren't all screwy. Thank you so much for all of your help!
I just got to thinking, depending on whether you think I should roll back to the firmware specifically for my R646 model, instead of using the newer Q8 model firmware version that I have installed now, and specifically whether that could possibly effect the EDID information (or not?), maybe you should hold off on making any new EDIDs, and since I'm sure that you're vastly more knowledgeable about what Maximum Luminance would be most appropraite and effectual, it would probably be best if you decided what it should be set to instead of me. From that Rtings review that I linked, the basic measurements for HDR is: Peak 2% Window: 660 cd/m² Peak 10% Window: 1,051 cd/m² Peak 25% Window: 1,085 cd/m² Peak 50% Window: 872 cd/m² Peak 100% Window: 851 cd/m² Sustained 2% Window: 656 cd/m² Sustained 10% Window: 1,035 cd/m² Sustained 25% Window: 1,069 cd/m² Sustained 50% Window: 869 cd/m² Sustained 100% Window: 848 cd/m² Automatic Brightness Limiting (ABL): 0.025 There is more detailed information in their review, but I sort of assumed that Maximum Luminance should be set to whatever the highest measurement overall showed, but like I said, I'm sure that you would know what would be the better choice. It just doesn't make any sense to me that my Max Nits EDID shows 372 compared to those measurements. Thanks again.
So yeah, first thing is the EDID is part of the firmware so you now have an EDID that presumably is entirely inappropriate to your display! That probably wouldn't matter so much if it wasn't for Dolby Vision, but the Dolby Block in the EDID defines the TVs colour primaries, Min/Max luminance and a bunch of other stuff as you see above. The discrepancy between Player Led and TV Led (which shouldn't happen) may mean that your TV doesn't support LLDV but the new EDID does. But the big problems are min/max luminance and colour primaries since they affect chrominance and luminance so you will have incorrect colours as well as incorrect brightness. These are examples of TCL EDIDs I have here and as you can see the primaries vary a lot, as do min/max luminance. So first question - can you flash back to the correct firmware so we get the correct figures? DV Version: 2 DV DM Version: v3.x DV Interface: low latency 422 12bit 2160p60: supported YUV422 12bit: not supported Global Dimming: not supported Backlight Control: not supported, default 100 nits RED Primary: 0.656, 0.316 GREEN Primary: 0.285, 0.641 BLUE Primary: 0.145, 0.059 MAX/MIN Luminance: 578 / 0.000 nits DV Version: 1 [short 12-byte version] DV DM Version: v3.x DV Interface: standard and low latency 422 12bit 2160p60: supported YUV422 12bit: not supported Global Dimming: not supported Backlight Control: not supported RED Primary: 0.707, 0.293 GREEN Primary: 0.172, 0.797 BLUE Primary: 0.133, 0.047 MAX/MIN Luminance: 850 / 0.022 nits DV Version: 2 DV DM Version: v3.x DV Interface: standard and low latency 422 12bit 2160p60: supported YUV422 12bit: not supported Global Dimming: supported Backlight Control: not supported, default 100 nits RED Primary: 0.664, 0.316 GREEN Primary: 0.273, 0.656 BLUE Primary: 0.152, 0.051 MAX/MIN Luminance: 320 / 0.045 nits
The firmware for my R646 and for the newer QM8 both have identical naming structure: V8-T615T02-LF1VXXX with the XXX being the firmware version number. This morning I tried using the IMG file I have to revert my TV back to it's original state (V011), but after loading it, I went to check for online updates and it said it was up to date, which I know it isn't. Unfortunately on the AVS thread for my TV, they treat the official firmware for my TV and the newer QM8 firmware as the same, so I wasn't sure when the firmware for my TV ended and the new firmware began. I called TCL and spoke to some lady from Malaysia for almost 2 hours and finally she said the latest official firmware for my TV is V258 and that she would be emailing me some files and information to get it taken care of manually on my end, but she couldn't say why my TV will not update automatically. She said it might take a little while to get the email and it's been over an hour now that I'm waiting. I'm not sure if they're going to send me an IMG file to flash it back and/or the newest firmware, or what. I already have the zip file for V258, so I'm thinking about just updating myself, but I guess I'll hold off a little more, in case there was something up with the IMG file that I have that's causing it to not update. Also, I'm positive my TV does LLDV because when I first got the TV and the Zidoo, I spent a long time comparing back and forth and thought they looked nearly identical, with color gradients being maybe just a touch better on TV Led, but it could've just been placebo.
The LLDV thing was just a bit of a spit ball - really there should be no difference between the two and for you to say that that Player Led is awful vs TV Led is a bit of a red flag - but hey, it's the wrong firmware, so it could be anything.
Never got the email from TCL so I went ahead and loaded the version I had and somehow now updating is working and everything seems fine. Stupid question, but none of the adjustments I make to the TV will effect the EDID will it? Like changing from Dolby Vision Dark mode to Bright Mode, or adjusting the color or contrast? I'm pretty sure nothing like that would effect the EDID, but I just wanted to make sure. My new EDID is attached. Thanks!
Hmm - that EDID is the same as the previous ones - at least as far as the Dolby Block goes. No, changing settings like that won't affect the EDID. Some TVs and some AVRs do have the ability to change the EDID, but that's generally only to do with restricting to HDMI1.4 with stupid names like HDMI Standard and HDMI enhanced. Nothing can change the Dolby Block though. That's fixed. So either something went screwy with the update or, more likely, because the Q8 is just an updated version of your TV, the specs as far as the Dolby Block go are the same. However, we kind of know they're not right because of the effect of lowering MinPQ to 0.000nits and those Rtings tests. So from those Rtings figures you quoted above, let's take the figure for the peak 100% window of about 850 nits and put that in too as that would seem to be more correct.. So this EDID has the following spec for the Dolby Block: DV Version: 2 DV DM Version: v3.x DV Interface: standard and low latency 422 12bit 2160p60: supported YUV422 12bit: supported Global Dimming: supported Backlight Control: not supported, default 100 nits RED Primary: 0.680, 0.305 GREEN Primary: 0.223, 0.676 BLUE Primary: 0.148, 0.055 MAX/MIN Luminance: 897 / 0.000 nits The reason TMaxPQ reports as 897 nits is because in this version of the Dolby Block (v2) TMaxPQ is defined by a 5 bit word, so 0-10,000 bits is defined by 00000 - 11111 so there are only 32 steps that can be defined between 0 and 10,000 and it's exponential. So the value in the EDID (01111) is for the range 834-964 with a nominal value of 897. I think this is a more accurate reflection of your TV's capabilities. https://mega.nz/file/cSB1SBxR#zSizHoczvbAdJdN0-q0Qc_gOe-GFyN-ZyX8O3_1BUxI
I tried the new EDID and everything looks great! Double checked the Spears & Munsil shadow detail and it's of course the same since both EDIDs you gave me have the same min nits. I tried LLDV and it's still messed up. Honestly, under normal use it looks pretty fine, if just a tad dark, but for some reason when I look at the shadow detail test, it rolls off way early with only the very top 105/104 showing. I tried turning off the custom EDID and checked it, and it shows down to about 85~83 which is exactly how TV Led was showing before you fixed the min nits info. Have no idea why the custom EDIDs would screw with that, but I've been using TV Led for the past couple of years and prefer that anyway, so that doesn't really concern me at all. I'm not exactly sure what to look for when comparing the first EDID with only the min nits to zero, and this new one with the added max nits to 897, but I figured to try something bright and/or with bright speculars. I tried the Stephen King Misery UHD which has a scene at 20min 20sec where the sheriff is climbing down a snow covered hill and it's extremely bright with little reflections off the snow. I felt like maybe there was a touch more dazzle on the snow highlights in the new EDID, but it really surprised me at how similar both EDIDs look. I even took a couple of pics and compared them and they looked very similar. I guess that might be down to whatever mapping is going on with the TV maybe? I have several black level test files and the old AVS 709 Calibration file, but I don't have a DV white clipping file to test. Do you happen to know if there is one available online to download? That would probably be a better way of checking for a difference between them. I think we're about good to go here, and I am so grateful for all of the help you've given me. I've had this problem for a couple of years, since very early firmware versions for my TV, and it just blows my mind that the USB input, which would be much less likely to get any regular use, appears to be much more accurate than the HDMI inputs, which is pretty much how everyone uses a TV. Why would they hobble this TV with screwy EDID info, and then just keep it screwy for years, even on into the newer updated version of the TV? Since the EDID info didn't change from going from the newer QM8 firmware back to the proper firmware, do you think it would be okay to update back to the newer firmware? It supposedly helps to cut down on the backlight getting twitchy and spazzing out on certain ultra dark scenes. Basically when this rarely happens, you can see a particular backlight zone turn completely off then come back on very low, so it kind of pulses from very dark grey to black in one spot for a second. Not sure if the newer firmware truly fixes this or not, but everyone on AVS seems to think so, and to me it did seem to reduce the flickering. Also, the newer firmware has some fantastic settings added to the remote. I can push the top left button and a menu selection pops up along just the very bottom of the screen horizontally and you can pick which items you want to show or remove, such as Dolby Vision Mode, Picture Settings, which takes me right into the main settings with one button push, whereas on this older firmware, I have to push a button on the middle right side to pop up a main menu, then select Picture Settings, then select Advanced Settings just to get to the main picture settings. Thanks again for all of your amazing help and advice!
I've no idea why the LLDV signal should be so different - it's not something I've seen before and since both TV Led and Player Led use the same Dolby Block and the player processes the DV signal for LLDV (there are differences but not so you'd notice) they should be pretty much identical - but hey, let's not worry about that if TV Led works ok. So upping TMaxPQ from 300 odd to 800 odd wouldn't make a huge difference because most content is below 200 nits and the specular highlights, when present, would either get tone mapped more (300 nits) or mostly show natively as long as those Rtings numbers are correct (800 nits) - shouldn't make a huge difference and honestly I wouldn't worry about it. Goodness knows what happened with that EDID - good job we can fix it eh? I think you should be good to go back to the QM8 firmware as you now have this EDID to sort the issues with DV out and from what we've seen I think the problem is same on both versions of the firmware. Bear in mind that if you use any other sources with Dolby Vision (other than USB) you'll have the same problem and unlike the Zidoo, I don't know of any other source that can load a custom EDID, so in that case an HDFury device or similar (but I'd highly recommend HDFury over anything else) would be needed. But in the meantime enjoy the pictures and thanks for bring such an interesting issue to light - I love shit like this
Just a couple more simple questions, I promise! 1) The RGB Primaries, what are the two different numbers for each? Is it Gain/Offset? Rtings has their white balance and colorspace calibration 2 Point and 20 Point settings for my TV listed on their site. Although they say that these settings are for the specific display on hand, I wonder if they might be better than just leaving those adjustments turned off, since the numbers from the EDID seem so all over the place and horrible? I guess I could, as you say 'suck it and see' and just reset it if it looks all wonky. 2) Do you know of any Dolby Vision white clipping file available online? I found Mehanik's HDR10 test patterns and I guess I should get the new Spears & Munsil calibration UHD, but if I could just find a DV white clipping file that would be nice. I marked the thread as 'Solved' in the title. I'm 53 years old and have been on the internet for about half of that time, and you have been the single most helpful person I've ever encountered by far! I can't believe what you were able to accomplish remotely for me, and I've dealt directly with many companies that seem to only hire people who have passed an incompetency test and have less knowledge about their own product than I do. I hope that Zidoo are paying you for being an around the clock one man customer service/technical support representative, because it would be absurd for them not to, with all you do on here for their customers. I tried to see if I could find a donation link on this site, but couldn't. I wouldn't want to donate to Zidoo, but I would be glad to, if it went directly to you. You sir are awesome!
That's very kind of you to say and I do appreciate it. I'm a couple of years older than you so yes and I was pretty much on the internet from day one - way before the World Wide Web appeared - remember BBSs? So the primaries define the red, green and blue x-y co-ordinates on a CIE diagram - you have Rx, Ry, Gx, Gy, Bx, By as below: Essentially the bigger the triangle, the more colours can be defined in between (as long as word length allows). Given both firmwares gave the same Dolby Block and therefore the same primaries, I would say we're safe to say that the primaries in that EDID are correct. Spears & Munsil have a DV white clip pattern on their new BluRay.
