Request: gapless playback in Music Player 3

Discussion in 'ZIDOO X20 PRO' started by Teratron, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. mirror

    mirror Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Zidoo TECH Supporter

    Could you please provide some Multi-channel SACD sample files for us? We'll check it.
  2. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    You may PM me for those in ISO untouched format. When burned will play in a regular SACD player and contain both the 2CH+MCH tracks. There are tools to extract to DSF/DFF or convert to PCM.

    Works using Z9S: MCH SACD ISO's do work for me, but sound is distorted considerably (unusable). For stereo the problem is far smaller with glitches now and then.
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  3. Tibor

    Tibor New Member

    Dear Mirror,
    You can also extract MCH SACD ISO via iso2DSD program. It has options Dual and Multichannel mode.
    You have to chose in Output Mode to Sony DSF, and check Convert DST to DSD.
    They are big files, usaly from 400MB to 1,5GB
    But I can share with you an example in privately.
  4. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    DST is DSD with lossless compression to reduce size. Music Player 3.0 currently can't handle DST compressed SACD files extracted to DFF/DSF. In fact DST is a great lossless format as it compresses even better (factor 2.5 average) than FLAC does for PCM. MCH tracks on a SACD are always DST compressed to make those fit, 2CH may be compressed but typically are not for 2CH only SACD's. ;)

    In fact suspect decompression to be the current root cause of problems real time converting SACD ISO's to PCM. It also explains why some 2CH SACD ISO's play correctly and others don't.
    For those not familiar: "SONORE SACD iso2dsd_PC_v7" is a free program to make conversions.
    As other APP"s can do it running on my Z9S is is proven to be possible, but frankly use native DSD output with those via my external DAC (do DST decompression but no need for PCM conversion). :(

    It would be very nice to get support for DST decompression of DFF files too. I am not sure the DSF format allows DST compression (DST was a specific Philips invention). :)
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  5. Tibor

    Tibor New Member

    In my case I use SONY UBP X800 player.
    It could play dual and multichanel factrory SACD. But if I use USB port for MCH DSD I have to decompress from DST to DSD. Otherwise it won't play or wrong.
  6. zid2019

    zid2019 Member

    I think first we need a flawless Sacd iso,dff,dsf playback.I would be happy with a simple stereo too. Of course in the future could be nice a multi ch sacd playback.But I hope
    they working on to create a usable Music Player 3.0 first. :) And they also promised a Zidoo App, which also promising.Dune HD already released their application. :)
  7. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    There is a Zidoo APP for the Music Player 3.0 control via a smartphone. Not using that one?
    In fact it is a web-browser interface which makes it universal for any OS on any platform.

    What is Dune offering here exactly?
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  8. zid2019

    zid2019 Member

  9. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    I like the way HiControl from Himedia is implemented even more. This APP's is a remote control plus a screen clone on your phone. The screen has then full touch screen capabilities allowing to control any APP running on the media player. Makes lots of APP's functional designed for smart-phones too.
  10. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    Created some test files using a SACD-ISO as the source with 2CH+MCH audio on it.
    My output is 6 versions in: 2CH+MCH DSF, 2CH+MCH DFF and finally 2CH+MCH DST compressed DFF
    I will store these all for future testing and as a reference.

    - DSF (Sony) does not allow DST compression hence 6 versions and not 8. If you have a DSF track you are pretty sure it is not compressed.
    - If all Stereo (2CH) tracks are very short (album below 1 Gbyte) and it is in ISO or DFF then it probably is DST compressed.
    - SACD-ISO's with just 2CH tracks on it are mostly not DST compressed but when combined with MCH also 2CH tracks probably will be.
    - It takes my PC roughly 3x the total duration to extract an SACD ISO when DST decompression is selected.
    - MCH is roughly 3x the size and it takes proportional time to extract. So a MCH DST track takes 9x the processing compared with 2CH uncompressed.
    - DST is indeed very effective in size reduction (reduced with roughly 2.5 factor). Decompression tools can easily be found but there is only one licensed Philips tool for compression.

    The above is nicely inline with my previous observations and allows to make the best choices when storing/playing SACD in various formats.
    Playing MCH ISO's (always DST) and MCH DST-DFF is a challenge for sure as real time conversion for DSD to PCM is added on top of extraction.

    Practical tests using Music Player 3.0:
    - 2CH DSF and 2CH DFF play just fine
    - 2CH DFF with DST plays distorted
    - MCH in any format won't play at all (regardless being DST decompressed)
    - ISO will play the 2CH tracks distorted (as it is DST compressed)
    Results as expected!
    For those having problems wit SACD playback: Stay away from MCH ISO: Use Sonore ISO2DSD to extract the 2CH track to DSF and it will play. Most 2CH SACD's should play from ISO's directly and if not do the same for those.

    An old question remaining is will MCH DSD be supported and is the ES90398 option for "Pass L+R" or "Downmix to L+R" made available in any format? MCH-DSF/DFF is the easiest.
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  11. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    Thanks! DST works just fine with FW 2.2.82 as it should. :)
    MCH remains unsupported but a MCH ISO will play now using the 2CH track correctly. For true MCH sound one still needs to convert the MCH ISO to MCH PCM tracks using an external program.

    Back to the topic: Gapless Playback is not made available with FW 2.2.82. :(
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  12. Ubylive

    Ubylive New Member

    @Nice Monkey: Thank you for keeping all the Forum updated with your results. These are very useful findings and good steps ahead from the Zidoo development team. MCH support would be a unique and distinctive selling point for this device, being able to send via HDMI the MCH content, coupled with the capability of reading the CD ISO would make the Zidoo X20 Pro very appealing for a large portion of specialized users ....
  13. Goar

    Goar New Member

    Exactly the same wishes were already desired by many others here in the forum or "positively" criticized - and that long ago and also repeated!
    To date, "ZIDOO" did not even batting an eyelash and has completely ignored these requests. Very friendly or!
    You are probably new to this forum. Just wait, but do not hope. ...... until you too the desire passes. Because one speaks with a wall!
  14. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    I agree it would be great to have RAW HDMI output for Native 2CH DSD first and MCH DSD next. Technically the SOC should potentially be capable doing so, but nobody ever wrote any Android drivers for DSD. If Zidoo is willing to put in that effort I doubt? The only chance would be a community like KODI adding it to their Audio Player implementation.

    I feel they prefer offering native DSD only for their UHD2000 4K model offering true 2CH DSD via Analog. Already asked if that model will at least decode MCH DSD and forward that to the ES9038 chip which then will downmux it to 2CH? That can be done for sure. Keep in mind most audiophiles stick like glue to a Stereo/2CH setup for their audio chain. They often have a (simple) HT setup next to this for movies. This unlike myself following the all-in-one approach which had some real challenges but I am very happy with.
    I don't expect DSD/MCH to ever come for X20 Pro anymore. For me that became apparent fairly quick and was the reason to go for an external USB DAC. Sorry to say but UHD200o 4K has a corrected design that should have been used from the start deploying the ES9038 chip.

    @Goar As is today Music Player 5.0 running on Z9S/Z10 is already an amazing HD Audio Player looking at value/money. Those extra configuration options and features asked here are very likely to come with future FW upgrades. Getting the basic sound/drivers right first was the correct Zidoo strategy in my view. Most people have no clue what DST is and frankly should not need to know as it is an integral part of the SACD standard. Claiming SACD playback implicitly includes DST which is accomplished now.

    @zid2019 You like the new APP? I use it now always for controlling Music Player 5.0 with my TV off. :) Not universal like HiControl for any other audio APP :(
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  15. zid2019

    zid2019 Member

    @zid2019 You like the new APP? I use it now always for controlling Music Player 5.0 with my TV off. :) Not universal like HiControl for any other audio APP :([/QUOTE]

    Hi @Nice Monkey!Summer is very busy for me, so I dont have time to test the new fw.I just tried some dff SACD file, and I can say this is the most improved fw till now.I mean in the case of sacd playback.
    I tested a few songs only, but is there a continouos playback with Music Player, there is no freezing, and the scratches through HDMI is disapperead and scratched through RCA is much better than before.
    So I get back my trust in nice job guys..keep it up!
    About the new app I dont used yet.Im an IOS user, although I have an android tablet so Im doing a try soon! Also will test the Home Theater catalogue.
  16. Goar

    Goar New Member

    I would suggest you start your own special company name "Only we are important", forget the essentials of a thing, conspire to more and more special things, forget in the meantime go to the ear doctor if it makes any sense for you or just fanatical, technical Enthusiasm is, but incidentally tormenting the end user from the expensive has paid for it, with problems that should have already long since brought to an end.

    My Apell: Bring once finished what you started! I refer to essential problems. Greetings to the developers and responsible persons
  17. dkychn

    dkychn New Member

    No sure when the new FW will fix the gapless issue. Existing player will miss first few seconds on every song......

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