HDfury Vertex2 - Dynamic DV content from LLDV source on any HDR10 display

Discussion in 'HDD Media player(RTD 1619DR)' started by rozel, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. rozel

    rozel Well-Known Member

    Just read this: -


    I have just acquired an HDfury AVR Key to split the video and Audio from my Z1000 Pro and this works very well indeed. However this article suggests that if I'd gone for the Vertex2 (more expensive) it can enable an LLDV output to display on a non-Dolby Vision display. My TV is a Samsung QE75Q950R which doesn't do Dolby Vision. So has anyone got this to work and if so what exactly does it display? I mean if all it displays is vanilla HDR10 then there's no point and I am getting excited for nothing but if it will display some form of video, enhanced by the metadata then this is worth going for, I believe.

    Any thoughts?
  2. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    It's fairly straightforward - the Vertex spoofs the EDID so if that EDID contains a valid Dolby Vision block, the Zidoo will output in accordance with that.

    LLDV (essentially Profile 5 DV) follows a standard St.2084 PQ (perceptual quantiser) static gamma curve rolled off at 1000nits but has its own proprietary colour space (IPT) which is fairly close (but different) to DCI-P3.

    For most TVs therefore you need to change the Dolby Block to allow a change of colour space - easiest being BT.2020. I wrote such an EDID quite a while ago and HDFury have incorporated it into the Vertex (and other devices I believe) so it's as easy as choosing the correct EDID (EDID 10).

    This will allow the Zidoo to output LLDV but in the BT.2020 colour space.

    With most displays you then need to convince the display to switch into its standard HDR mode which is done with a custom HDR string generated in the Vertex, so as far as the TV is concerned it's seeing a standard HDR device on the input - so you set the Vertex up to output a 1000nit HDR10 message to match the 1000nit of the Dolby block when it receives an LLDV input.

    At that point you are seeing a genuine LLDV signal on your standard HDR10 monitor. Of course for the most part, since most content you use will be either SDR or HDR10 you're seeing a conversion, but it's using the VS10 engine to do exactly what it's supposed to - output all content in the best available mode (in Dolby's opinion!!) - and it's pretty good!

    I have this working fine on a 75" Samsung HDR10 LED and a JVC projector.

    There's a huge thread here on AVS:

    Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? | Page 126 | AVS Forum
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
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  3. rozel

    rozel Well-Known Member

    Thanks ever so much for that - makes me wonder why I didn't read up first before shelling out for the AVR Key. I'll talk to my supplier to see if he'll trade back.

    So I see you also have a 75" Samsung, may I ask what model and what results you get on it with the Vertex please using one of these new media players?
  4. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Not sure of the model (I'm not home right now) but it's an LED not an OLED, wasn't expensive, and I'm just using it for testing with the Zidoo.

    If I'm honest, subjectively with real world content, there's nothing to choose between the LLDV output and HDR10 output but if you dig deeper with test patterns you see that there is less (virtually none) chroma banding with LLDV - if you look at @Sledgehamma 's review you'll see more detail about that there.

    Review: Zidoo Z9X

    My main interest in LLDV output is for my projector - again, the difference between HDR10 and LLDV when set up correctly is minimal but it's more the ability to output in one display format while minimising resyncs between different content formats.

    If nothing else though I'd thoroughly recommend the Vertex since you have a lot more control over what's going on and it's a brilliant tool for diagnostics.
  5. rozel

    rozel Well-Known Member

    Thanks once more - I'm communicating with the retailer for a Vertex2 and a trade back for the AVR Key. It'll be interesting to monitor differences in HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision and HLG
  6. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Fantastic - I hope he sorts it out for you.
  7. rozel

    rozel Well-Known Member

    I'm sure he will and I daresay I'll be asking for your help setting up. I've read that my TV is rated at 4000 nits and the Vertex I think goes to 1000 nits before clipping sets in. Will my PQ suffer because of this? Also if I play A Dolby Vision only video what will be displayed on my TV?
  8. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Max nits are defined by the Dolby block in the EDID not the Vertex - you can specify 10,000 if you want but that would cause really bad issues! So no, you won’t lose out.

    Any DV content will get spit out in LLDV just like any other.
  9. rozel

    rozel Well-Known Member

    Still waiting on my retailer but my brain continues unabated thinking about this. OK so assuming I get the Vertex2 will the resultant "HDR" displaying on the TV be dynamic aka HDR10+ or will it be static like HDR10?
  10. skelton

    skelton Member

    I am really curious to try this out myself with my Sony 4K projector + Z10 Pro combo but i am still not sure if it`s the worth the cost to get a Vertex2 or use the VS10 output on the Zidoo player instead.

    Can anyone with a projector try and describe the differences between outputting SDR & HDR10 source material using the VS10 output on the Zidoo vs. using the LLDV hack with a Vertex2?
    Is it really worth it in your opinion to get the Vertex2 to output LLDV and if so, why so?

    Worth noting is that i don`t currently have any native DV source material so all my content is either SDR or HDR10.
  11. NickS

    NickS New Member

    skelton, I have a Z9X, a Vertex2 and an Epson 5040 projector.

    I've always enjoyed the 5040 with a procession of Zidoo players. The Z9X with its 1619 processor was a major step up from my previous Z9S.

    Adding the Vertex2 to the video chain is an absolute knock out after following Mark's insightful posts and applying his advice.

    As the Z9X firmware continues to improve, I'm sure PQ will get better but I could die happy with my system as it is right now.

    Every evening there seems to be more moments that create a temporary sense of disbelief with what we're seeing. There is a bit of an iterative learning curve but highly recommended nonetheless.
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  12. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    VS10 SDR and HDR have raised black floors at the moment - what we used to called raised pedestal in the good old days - I posted here about it:


    And as for using LLDV with a projector:

    HDfury Vertex2 - Dynamic DV content from LLDV source on any HDR10 display

    Theoretically the best option for a projector will be VS10 SDR since that uses Dolby's special sauce to tone map and colour map but at the moment that's not possible because of the luminance levels are just so far out.

    I'm using LLDV in my cinema now and I have to say I'm very pleased with the results.
  13. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Here's a quick and dirty set of instructions to getting LLDV with a Vertex connected:

    Assuming you have the Vertex updated to latest firmware, connected between the Zidoo and tv/receiver and it's connected to your LAN:

    1. In the web interface, EDID tab - select Custom EDID and then EDID 10 for the input you have the Zidoo connected to


    This is the one I wrote for HDFury and despite it saying Sony A1, it doesn't have a single byte of Sony in it - HDFury just called it that because they thought it was less confusing since this whole thing originated from the Sony A1 (I disagree, it should just be called BT.2020 LLDV).

    This fools the Zidoo into thinking it's connected to an LLDV display but crucially, it maps into BT.2020 colour not the native Dolby IPT Colour which your TV will not support.

    (just for information, the original Sony EDID is in Custom EDID 5 and although, again confusingly, HDFury have called this DCI-P3, it isn't, it's IPT, although P3 is close to IPT)

    2. Now to get the TV to switch into HDR when it receives an LLDV signal - In the HDR/AVI tab, tick "Use Custom HDR for TX0 and TX1 when input is LLDV" and set the HDR metadata as shown below.

    Click "Create IF" which creates the Custom HDR string and click "Send HDR" to save it as the Custom HDR.

    (don't worry that these settings revert to default when you leave the page - once you've clicked "Send HDR" that metadata is saved permanently as the Custom HDR string)


    Now if you check the HDR tab setting in the Zidoo you should see the option for LLDV there, choose that and the Zidoo will output LLDV and the TV will switch to HDR. Also, because you changed the HDR setting in the Zidoo, the HDMI Mode will go back to auto so if you had that set to a custom resolution it'll need changing back.


    This is just scraping the surface of what the Vertex can do, but it'll get you started.
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  14. rozel

    rozel Well-Known Member

    Brilliant! Just what I needed. My Vertex 2 arrives tomorrow :)

    I currently have HDMI Mode set to: - 3840x2160P 60Hz. This was recommended at the outset, when the players were released. I've never understood what Mapping HDR10 does though?
  15. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    I set to 3840x2160 23Hz since 99% of my content is 23.976fps so the GUI matches - less syncing.

    Mapping HDR10 just forces all content to HDR10 - so HDR stuff stays in HDR but SDR stuff is converted to HDR.

    But the conversion from SDR to HDR is terrible - very overblown. It's useful for projector owners who exclusively use HDR content since the GUI is then in HDR so less syncing, but as I say, only for HDR content.

    The VS10 SDR to HDR conversion is much better but the black floor is raised at the moment so although colours are correct, luminance is way out, so it's unusable.

    You'll be able to test this when the Vertex arrives by selecting various custom EDIDs.
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  16. skelton

    skelton Member

    Thank you so much @Markswift2003 for the starting guide. I will order the Vertex2 today and look forward to try this out soon
  17. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    I should be on commission!! :D
  18. rozel

    rozel Well-Known Member

    You should - you're the man :)

    Can you change the custon EDIDs on the fly, whilst the video is playing or is that asking too much of the player/Vertex 2 ? I presume you alter the EDIDs via the Webserver?
  19. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Yes you can - I think if a video is playing and you change EDID, the video will pause, but yes you can definitely do that. And yes - via the web server.

    Once you learn more about it you can start importing your own EDIDs - for instance I have several test LLDV EDIDs at different nit values - as it happens, 1000nits is the best and most correct for LLDV but it's interesting messing with this stuff.

    The Vertex has been invaluable in beta testing because you can tailor the EDID to test for all sorts of different scenarios.
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  20. skelton

    skelton Member

    Regarding the bolded part, do you think Zidoo can/will fix this black floor issue in the next firmware?
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