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Feedback Color issue thread - Discussion 2

Discussion in 'ZIDOO X9S' started by n_p, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. n_p

    n_p Active Member

    So the Zidoo X9S outputs all menu, apps and game colors incorrectly. Huge margins, clearly visible color errors.

    Is that reason enough for a mod to try to reframe the issue in a desparate move asking all customers to remember that this is a VIDEO player, and in some video apps the colors are right - then lock the thread?

    Help me understand this.

    Also, why was no reason for shutting down the thread given? Neither publicly nor to me in private?

    is it safe for everyone to assume, that Zidoo is just trying to get more unassuming customers to buy their stuff without understanding that color reproduction is broken?

    Why is discussion prohibited and the message getting censored?

    And just as a question for me personally, to understand the mindset - so color reproduction issues on an Android device in everything but video in certain applications is fine, because - you market it as a video player? Is that official Zidoo messaging, or the community managers personal opinion?

    Also, why does this opinion lead to the closing of a thread that brings up an issue with this product?

    And then a personal question for @mirror: How does it feel to get paid to hide design failures from your customers? The next time you look at your bank statements, just think of all the potential people you have prevented from making informed purchase decisions, by just changing the frame of what this is.

    Zidoo preinstalls the Google Play Store and Chrome on that thing, because they market it "only as a Video player" right? Still convinced, that this is a white lie?

    Because to me it sounds very much like false advertising, and the company then not owning up to the issues they shipped their product with. In fact - even hindering the information to get out there about what they did wrong.

    edit: Also please make sure you dont use any Zidoo product to play back images you have taken, because Zidoo products are purely VIDEO players, and color errors on all image reproduction (even within Zidoo's own players) is just to be expected. Have I got this correct?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
    boblo and sprengbox like this.
  2. nikos_a

    nikos_a Active Member

    n_p, I asked you two times, one directly, one indirectly, how can you be so sure that this is not on RTD1295 and it is on Zidoo's side. You didn't answer. Since the beginning, you moan about Zidoo. And you keep on accusing Zidoo and now @mirror. He answered CLEARLY to you that no one can change the way the chip works. This is clearly a Realtek "optimization" to their hardware. You are wasting your time blaming Zidoo. If I was you, I would try and find another RTD1295 box from another manufacturer and try your tests there. I am sure that you will be disappointed because you will discover that it is how the chip works. If people want more generic use of an android box, they are free to choose one with different chip. But they won't get several of the goodies like autoframe, HD audio passthrough etc. Don't start a war in a forum that is supposed to help in a QA manner. Send Zidoo an email if you take it so personally but please, respect the fact that not all people want to be involved in a forum argument.
     
  3. n_p

    n_p Active Member

    I am not sure at all. In fact I asked in the thread openly, if other users had more information on who is responsible for the faulty code base.

    But lets not use deflection tactics here to loose track of the issue. In the end a faulty product is on sale here, and Zidoo just closed a thread in their forum, that tried to inform people about what they are getting.

    If you are a company selling product, at some point you have to take responsibility for what you are producing. Even more so if you tout its "video recording" functionality - and in the end f.e. you use the wrong color standard for your HDMI IN functionality, and then cant even produce the correct black level from the HDMI IN port, in your default settings.

    You cant just market your product for things it doesn't do correctly. Thats not ok.
     
  4. boblo

    boblo Member

    Why don't they ask for a solution to Realtek then? HiMedia did that with HiSilicon for the very odd HDR aspect ratio bug and a fix is already on the way. That bug is really important, yes, and this bug is only relatively important, yes too, but it's there. Your excuse is not valid, they are assemblers and have the responsibility to get in touch with the CPU manufacturer in order to iron out bugs. It could be acceptable to have this unfixed if this product would have a low price tag, but it's not the case; the X10 costs about 230€.

    They have lost a potential customer. I was absolutely sold to purchase a X10, but that was before. I'm not asking for an instant solution, it may take months to have this fixed, I know, the important thing is if they are willing to fix it, sooner or later. For me it would have been enough to pull the trigger.

    I could understand this kind of 'response' if Zidoo were a mediocre chinese company, but it's not the case. They have good reputation, design attractive products, with good workmanship, they pay attention to details (good quality electronic components, see X9S announcement) and their products have very high ratings in reviews. But now I've realized that customer care is not good. Firmware support is different, it seems good, but they must listen to customers, because they pay not only for the product, also for a good after-sales support (and communication, that nowadays is almost non-existent).

    Thanks for reading this.
     
  5. HaoSs

    HaoSs Well-Known Member Beta test group Contributor

    Yah,i think the language barrier is the most damaging part for zidoo.
     
    videobruce likes this.
  6. nikos_a

    nikos_a Active Member

    You say not sure at all but from your first post you blame Zidoo. This is not "not sure at all". Your opinion is biased, that's what I saw.

    Also, you asked for official reply. You got your reply and you keep whining. Live with it. If you don't like the response, ask for a refund and bye something else. Are you an official ISF calibrator? If yes, you should know how measurements are taken, what counts and what not. Wesk05 tried to reply to you, you ignored many of his questions and at the same time, you treated him as you were the epicenter of the world. Honestly, stop being a crybaby. If you don't like how Realtek handles things, ask for a refund and buy something else. Thanks for your finding, appreciated. You asked for reply, you got it. Live with it.

    So far, Zidoo has been responsible for many fixes in 1295 by addressing these to Realtek. Do you know they didn't ask for a solution? No. Also, not sure if you are new to Media Players. I wrote it already that Realtek does not have a reputation in chipsets. Sigma has been kicking their butt fair and square, but even then, the 1295 behaves perfectly well as a media player chipset. If you do not want a 1295 box as a media player, buy something else. No one is forcing you to buy one with 1295. Buy something else and then have no passthrough, no auto frame etc. Zidoo is not forcing anyone to buy their products. Mirror clearly said what is the reason. Any other company wouldn't even bother replying. If your eyes are as sensitive a professional calibration equipment for cases when not playing video, avoid zidoo and buy something else. Trust me, Zidoo will not cry for the loss of one potential customer.
     
    Schrooms likes this.
  7. antenna

    antenna New Member


    i can not agree with you. if i were Zidoo, i will be happy to have a customer pointing out the defect helping to improve the product. can not tolerate such an idea as buying another stb or you r stupid customer etc.
     
    boblo likes this.
  8. n_p

    n_p Active Member

    So here is whats insulting about this logic.

    1. "What if they have done something to fix this, but havent told us?"
    They have gone silent on the issue (a moderator acknowledged it in the thread but then pronounced it to be "normal" as Zidoo devices are all about color errors, when not just watching a video), then closed the thread that was talking about it. None of that is proactive. None of that is confidence inducing.

    2. Why anyone would believe that a company is "fixing things" when their community management is trying to burry the issue, call it a non issue, and doesnt make a public commitment to at least look into the problem is beyond me. Its more than naive to think, just because they continue to develop their software base, they are willing and able to fix a fundamental issue with the hardware they put out a year ago, while doing everything to play down the issue as being "fringe".

    3. "Just buy a different product" is straight out of the crisis PR handbook, page one. There are so many things wrong about this position, that I have to make a list.

    - The main issue here is that Zidoo is engaging in censorship to keep the issue away from their future customers. Just being placid and buying something differen wont solve that.
    - Zidoo refused to confirm, that the problem is chipset related, and "youtube evangelists" dont test devices thoroughly, so there is no way currently to find out which Android based video boxes suffer from the issue, before buying them.
    - Zidoo is trying to keep up a "premium" feel about their brand. There is nothing premium about not even getting color reproduction right. Theres nothing premium in not adhering to video standards.
    - If "wrong colors" indeed is "common" in this industry - and most boxes are not outputing correct colors, thats not a thing to champion, or to try to spin in a "the market will correct this, just buy a different one" way - because, the information thats needed for that here was just censored by Zidoo, because they were worried, that wrong color reproduction presumably could have an impact on their sales...
    - "Just buy a different one" is meant to isolate criticism to an outgroup. Its "if you find something wrong with the product you bought - don't say anything about it, and buy another one - blindely" logic, thats only helping the company putting out a broken product.
    - If you need transparancy and accountability to solve an issue, and your average community member is lobbying for not say anything in face of obvious censorship attempts "because they like their product" there is some serious emotional reframing going on not to have to acknowledge, that a product is faulty and the company behind it, just wanted to shut down the reporting on it.

    Also - regardless of how often the "fans" come up with with a "just believe!" slogan, I would like an official statement about the issue, and how they handled it - by Zidoo officials. The thread was shut down by officials, without any reason given for it - so lets give them the opportunity to say publicly what they plan to do about their product outputing wrong colors in all but some video players, and why they thought this information had to be kept from being discussed on their forums.

    Give them a chance to react in a way that does not try to reframe this in a "but the X9S is ONLY a video playback device". The X9S is broken in serious ways that are advertised as working in their marketing. In the EU thats even a legal matter. The words "sale stop" and "recall" come to mind.

    So give them a chance to clarify and react. And not try to lobby customers to ignore and buy something else "without knowing what they are getting" again.

    Even if you are convinced, that this is a chipset problem, that affects Zidoos competitors as well, a confirmation would be important, so we as a public know, what not to buy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  9. boblo

    boblo Member

    @nikos_a:
    Don't you want a better product? Don't you realize that @n_p is trying to help us? Wouldn't you like to surf the web (or play games) watching images correctly rendered (more or less, an exact accuracy is not needed, but colors should be as they are). And if you don't need those things, don't prevent other users request to have those features fixed. Believe me, I cannot understand your point. You should be grateful for the efforts made by @n_p, with the aim to help Zidoo. It seems nobody pays this person so I think he deserves respect (even if he's wrong with his tests).

    Finally, I'd like to buy a X10, Zidoo's flagship MP, because I think it's more than a MP. Certainly it's a PVR too with its HDMI input recording feature. Furthermore, it's an Android mini computer because you can use some apps from Play Store. But I won't buy a Zidoo product with this kind of support, where users are ignored almost always.

    No, it's not. It's Zidoo's ATTITUDE. They don't care user communication, that's the truth. Language should not be a problem, there are online translators. In fact, I've seen admins posting in acceptable english in this forum. Now go to Egreat forums, for example, and you'll see that admin Rita is much more kind than any admin in this forum. And yes, both companies are chinese (and they should have the same issues with english) but behaviour with users is different.

    PS. My guess is this thread will be locked on monday too and the original thread will not be reopened, sadly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  10. nikos_a

    nikos_a Active Member

    What is insulting is that you asked for official reply and when you got it, you opened a new topic saying "without explanation". They gave you explanation but you probably didn't like it. If you didn't like it, why did you ask at first place? Why? Because you are one of those forum "I-know-everything smartasses". Get of your horse and stop acting like a smartass. I asked you at first place about why do you focus on Zidoo and not Realtek. I have been using media players with chipsets from Realtek and Sigma for the past years. Realtek has always been a pain in the ass in some cases. You want to know how they have been? Research about Sidewinder 2 and how the company that took it out behaved to its customers.

    You probably have an issue to understand basic English. Mirror said that it is in chipset and no once can change this and that it is a media player. Can you understand these things? It is basic English. BASIC. Zidoo is not trying anything. RTD1295 can be found in many boxes and they all, according to what mirror said, "suffer" from the same thing. So "suffer" means almost perfect playback of all media files with accurate colors, but hey, when you try to browse on the internet, the colors that only a machine can identify that are not perfect, should make someone whining.

    If it is a legal matter in EU, go back your product and ask for a refund. In EU, you can take a product back within 6 months of buying if it is not what it is supposed to be in terms of specs. Do the same for Beelink and Zappiti and whoever is using a Realtek chipset. Before that though, get of your white horse and stop being an egoist. Some people do not care about some things, live with it.


    You do not help by ignoring others. n_p acted like a smartass since the very beginning by ignoring what Wesk05 asked him, or what I asked him. My question to you is "can you identify with just your eyes if colors in a browser are perfect". Be careful what to say and not enter "n_p smartass mode". Also I do not prevent anything. I bought x9s knowing about what Realtek was and is. If you are new to media players, rather than moaning, read. If you don't like x9s, buy something else. I told you, buy something else may mean to get something with "accurate colors when browsing" but you may lose passthrough, you may lose autoframe and some other things. Choose whatever you want. I am happy with x9s as a media player. I would never buy android device to play games or anything, there are better boxes to do that (like Shield for example). You want something for media players, x9s or x8/x10 are almost perfect. Stop whining and live with it.
     
  11. boblo

    boblo Member

    First.
    @mirror posted in that thread because I PM'ed him previously, pointing out the thread. If not, you can be sure that no official reply would have been posted.

    Second.
    I think you didn't read my post replied by @mirror. Answer's context is IMPORTANT. I was talking about 'Magic Pixel' enhancement found in Zappiti 4K HDR players and then he claimed the following:
    Do you understand now? He was meaning Magic Pixel tecnology, not the color issue discovered by @n_p.

    Third.
    I had to post again in the closed thread to point out to @mirror the right post talking about the color issue. Then he answered the following:
    The most important part is that @mirror DID NOT claim that this issue has NO solution. Simply he said: 'it's a media player', so he meant that this issue is not important enough to fix it.

    Until a new official statement we don't know if this issue has solution or not. Even we don't know if this issue is chipset-related or firmware-related. So do not enter in 'smartass mode' as you said and read carefully people posts before claiming anything.

    PS. For your information, yes I have a media player, an old TVIX 6500A with Sigma chipset (SMP8635) and I perfectly know what is to buy a 600€ device which had very few stable firmware releases. In fact, last firmware version was Beta and had more bugs than any firmware from Zidoo. And I'm talking about a korean company, not a chinese one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  12. mirror

    mirror Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Zidoo TECH Supporter

    It involves about Android's system colors.Playback and GUI is a totally different rendering mechanism. Please test other competing chips(such as Hisilicon) and Comparing version v1.4.6,if you get a different results. Then I promise to fix it!!
    IF NO!
    PLEASE DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME!
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
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  13. boblo

    boblo Member

    @mirror: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THIS CHANCE!!! :)

    I'm going to help @n_p regarding this matter, although I'm not an expert nor have his advanced tools, but I have some ideas. I think the Zappiti 4K HDR could be a good start, using the same RTD1295 SoC. This could be the ultimate proof.

    @n_p: You have a PM.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
  14. wesk05

    wesk05 Member Beta test group

    Well... if this is the case, you may have to fix it.

    I checked the colors in the Google PlayStore icon on 3 different devices (Minix U9-H, Mecool M8S Pro - Amlogic S912, nVIDIA Shield - Tegra X1) and the only one that doesn't match is from Zidoo X9S. The table below shows the YCbCr values of a pixel that is 4 pixels from the center of the PlayStore icon.

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. mirror

    mirror Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Zidoo TECH Supporter

    Please provide the firmware version number on X9S
     
  16. mirror

    mirror Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Zidoo TECH Supporter

    Did you try to adjust this parameter?

    20170703161015.png

    20170703161024.jpg
     
  17. wesk05

    wesk05 Member Beta test group

    This was done on firmware 1.4.6
    Yes. Tweaking these parameters will not correct this error. You may be able to correct the luminance (Y) error, but not Cb or Cr errors.

    I checked this again to figure out what might be causing this error. In the table below you will see the YCbCr values for 100% stimulus and intensity for the primary & secondary colors. The reference pattern was generated using Calman MobileForge app with Calman "Luminance Levels" option set to full. Also given in the table are the RGB triplets for the test patterns and the expected YCbCr values for Rec.709 (HD) and Rec.601 (SD) color spaces.

    [​IMG]

    It is very clear from the table that Zidoo X9S is using Rec.601 matrix for RGB to YCbCr conversion. This applies to both full and limited RGB source. It is the use of incorrect conversion matrix that is causing the color error.

    I commend @n_p for detecting this color error and reporting it!
     
    klinsmn, mrs4t4n, DolbyVision and 4 others like this.
  18. mirror

    mirror Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Zidoo TECH Supporter

    Thank you very much.We are checking it!
     
  19. Gwadalolo

    Gwadalolo New Member

    So much noise for color errors that nobody had noticed without specialized equipments... :(

    Nice ftom them if Zidoo fixes these, but as a x9s customer I have to say that I couldn't care less.
     
  20. boblo

    boblo Member

    I think you have not read the full explanation by @n_p in the other closed thread neither the answer he gave to me. Read the FIRST 2 POSTS and pay attention to this statement from him:
    Now, go back in this thread and pay attention to @wesk05 results:
    Of 4 devices, including the Zidoo, only the Zidoo has this color deviation. This means colors will not be properly rendered when browsing the web or gaming, for example. This is not acceptable if the other devices do not have this issue. Hence @mirror promised to fix this issue (because competition does not have it).
     

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