Feedback Color issue thread - Discussion 2

Discussion in 'ZIDOO X9S' started by n_p, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. boblo

    boblo Member

    Please keep on topic, guys. I'm pretty sure Zidoo will get tired reading these unuseful posts with disputes among users that don't add any meaningful information for this issue, and I'd like to have it fixed because, probably, I'm one of the few people who wants to use his Zidoo as a mini computer rendering correct colors on the web. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  2. wesk05

    wesk05 Member Beta test group

    I was testing exclusively with ZDMC (external player), that's why we were having different results. The output from Kodi on firmware 1.4.8 is broken in all modes (RGB/YCbCr/Limited/Full). With YCbCr Full mode, you can see the flashing bars in Kodi because of an unusual scaling. 0 is 16, 16 is 32. So, the flashing bars are actually 16-32.
     
  3. n_p

    n_p Active Member

    Thank you for testing, I also read your more in depth posting in the 1.4.8 thread.

    So in the interest of the many - lets play this up a little and say, that they succeeded in making the device worse, not better (no - rolling back isnt a solution either). And so my worst fears have been realized.

    Recommendation still stands - hire someone that knows what he/she is doing - or at least do extensive testing before releasing beta firmwares.

    Also - I have to add again, that having a consumer device output YCbCr FULL is extremely rare. Having it output YCbCr FULL by default (if the EDID prerequisite is met), is basically unheard of, and making it not "user controllable" is probably a very bad idea.

    But hey - they already rushed one firmware with those issues as OTA, so quality control clearly doesnt mean much to them.

    Then again - at some point they have to solve those issues, if they want to build a name in the AV space. Currently we can laugh about it as early adopters in this space, but when the market gets larger, people will not be so forgiving...
    (In case they even recognize an issue as an issue - we already had one case of the Apple "reality distortion field" in here.)

    So its either - build a product that works as expected, or invest in Facebook marketing and "community management" for them. Its up to them to decide.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  4. mirror

    mirror Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Zidoo TECH Supporter

  5. Gwadalolo

    Gwadalolo New Member

    It's kinda sad to hide technical skills with so much insicerity, I never wrote anything against the "facts", I talked about priorities.
    Ok, this is useless, I must be mad to continue arguing
    If you don't like that people react and provide their opinion, then please consider it twice that you are posting on a user forum...
     
  6. boblo

    boblo Member

    Please indicate RGB range for each option. For example:
    'Limited Range (16-235)'
    'Full Range (0-255)'

    Thanks.
     
  7. n_p

    n_p Active Member

    And you did it after it was stated (to be more sincere, I stated), that its a priority A issue, if they want to play in the "premium Android box" market.

    I also offered a comparison where the issues they initially introduced would make the entire signal reproduction worse than on most TVs out there even in the cheap segment. So - even a 300 USD TV with a 35 USD Raspberry Pie (f.e.) at that one point in time offered better color reproduction, than a top of the line TV with the X9S attached. Just looking at the visible (by dE (industry measure)) error they introduced.

    They are well on their way to fix it now - and they did prioritize it, after the initial marketing mitigation pleasantries.

    Please understand that I wouldnt have been so harsh in choosing my words, if I hadn't seen this as a task to cut through potential PR strategies to essentially "cover this up".

    The most effective way for them to work is to play with the "perceived importance" of this issue to a wider audience, that first has to put trust in users like wesk05 or me, that we arent overemphasizing the problem just because we are geeks in that space. With all digression, and leeway we would give them as a very interesting upstart in the field, they had/have to fix this.

    So from my POV "but everyone has different priorities" simply was a potential dilution strategy, that I wanted to stop early. Thats why I basically shut you down as quickly as possible. It was not "a priori" an ego thing (although at some point.. ;) ).

    So I am sorry, but I had my reasons for it.

    (As an early adopter, I've done things like this in the past with other chinese startups, and have personal experience on how some of them mask (category A) issues they dont want to fix with just social media management.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
    Cyclion likes this.
  8. Gwadalolo

    Gwadalolo New Member

    Understood - but I raised my point at a time where issue was already prioritized, and tentatively fixed, or else I would have remained silent because I would never discourage to fix an issue. To me there's no good reasons to be harsh on people but well ok :)
     
  9. ton_dahlia

    ton_dahlia Member

    Is this issue also happen to X10 ?
     
  10. boblo

    boblo Member

    Yes. 99% of issues affect X8/X9S/X10, because all of them share the same firmware base.
     
  11. boblo

    boblo Member

    @n_p: Could you confirm if this issue is solved in new firmware 1.4.12?

    Thank you
     
    Cyclion likes this.
  12. mirror

    mirror Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Zidoo TECH Supporter

    In fact, The native player will be parsing content range,if the range is limited,the HDMI will be forced limited output.But ZDMC not to parsing content range. Anyway, In v1.4.12,the default option change to limited output if the HDMI mode set to auto.Also solved the native player 16-229 issue.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  13. ton_dahlia

    ton_dahlia Member

    how should I check what the best color range option for my TV when watching the movie ?

    thanks for suggestion
     
  14. n_p

    n_p Active Member

    @mirror: Your mods have just deleted a forum tread, where none of what you are suggesting is working. At all. (At least not on Firmware 1.4.11.)

    I've made a *.pdf backup I encourage you and everyone else interested in the issue to read - I've attached it to this thread.

    What is happening there (my interpretation) is the following:

    The user has his TV set to limited. Playing back a picture greyscale graph (= displayed in GUI levels), shows - that the X9S, set to auto, is falsely outputting YCbCr FULL as a default (blacks are washed out).

    Then the same user is pointing out, that in one of ZDMCs video players you see severe black crush, for no apparent reason.
    -

    Here is the issue with your approach. You assume, for no reason, that the TV the X9S gets connected to will auto switch

    - to full, when a YCbCr full signal is displayed (because the EDID says, that the TV is capable) -no TV does that, I've seen three issue reports from different people in this forum, that are purely caused by Zidoo sticking to this unfounded believe, that "the TV will fix it", for no reason. Expect TVs to be set up to expect a limited signal, expect them not to switch color levels at all. Thats a reasonable default for the auto setting (or at least the default setting, if you choose for auto to behave differently). Trying to induce the TV to auto switch, because of a text file (EDID), which then never happens (because of the TV), is silly.

    - when you are differentiating between "players" that either switch to the correct mode (full/limited), or not - when looking at the source material - please be more specific. Does a default intallation of Kodi support it? Does ZDMC support it? Does dvdplayer (Kodis playback engine) withing ZDMC support it? Does Zidoos own Player within ZDMC support it?

    Here is why - if it turns out, that people get wrong black levels - depending on what player they choose to use - and one of those players is the one Zidoo came up with, this still qualifies as an issue.

    - what happens in the case when someone uses the X9S on a PC monitor (0-255 setup), then plays back a normal video (99% of those are encoded with 16-235 levels). According to what you just said, you do no conversion to 0-255? If thats the case, thats a problem. You cant honestly say "it only works on auto". And then believe the TV will always switch to limited in that case.

    - The last time I tested GUI black levels against either of the video player black levles (on the beta firmware) NONE of them matched up. Some players output blacklevels closer to the target than others, but none were at target. I'll test this again with the most current firmware asap. But then its HARD do keep motivated, when you release changes every week and your changelogs are entirely useless in regards to saying what you did.

    - What happens, if the video contains 16-255 levels? (Like f.e. many Blurays) Because if the player in that case switches to "full", and the TV still stays at limited - your entire "auto" concept doesnt work at all.

    Please be so kind and answer all of those questions for once, and dont give me a two liner in which "limited" case your "solution" might work , now, after the third patch. And a prolonged period of silence. I promise not to berate you on a fringe issue that still might exist - but lets get to it. If your "solution" turns out to be that people should buy better TVs and always use the auto mode - thats no solution, and you know it.

    Also - I suggest you DONT delete entire threads, just because you dont want people to read about issues your TV boxes have. This is the second time I have to remind you of that.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  15. dany76

    dany76 New Member

    So, the issue is not resolve with the firmware 1.4.12 too?
     
  16. n_p

    n_p Active Member

    I bet not at all, and Zidoo is back to deleting forum posts about it again... But give me an hour or two and I'll test it. Downloading the 1.4.12 firmware right now.
     
  17. dany76

    dany76 New Member

    n_p bu this problem is the only zidoo or even the others device like Egreat, Himedia and shield tv?
     
  18. mirror

    mirror Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Zidoo TECH Supporter

    Why can't I delete it? He's a Chinese. He sent me an email before sending this thread. I think his test is completely wrong, and there's already a thread discussing colors here.
     
  19. n_p

    n_p Active Member

    Tested with resolution set to 1080p60, never used auto color space (will do that later, just to check it out as well), and checked all three color spaces (YCbCr 422, 444, and RGB 444) separately on signal range (16-235/0-255) limited. Checked RGB 444 also on signal range full. Checked, that auto defaults to limited on a certein receiver (the LUT box). It did. Checked if auto defaults to full on an LG OLED. It did.

    Results:

    Strange color spaces are gone in all modes (I guess that was caused by the 16-229 issue wesk05 first discovered, and it is now fixed)(judging from primaries/secondaries (6 colors) only). Thats an accomplishment. You may congratulate Zidoo on it.

    Black level between Kodis playback engine (dvdplayer) and Zidoos own player in ZDMC are now consistent. Tested with YCbCr 444 limited, RGB 444 limited and RGB 444 full modes. Thats great, because differentiating between them, always talking about one, but not the other was a hassle.

    But:

    - Blacklevel ist "too dark" by 6 ticks of the contrast slider on a LG OLED in all color modes and color ranges (black level test pattern played in ZDMC), compared to other video sources. This is addressable via the color parameters setting (brightness) in menu and seemingly affects GUI and video modes equally. A comment on why this is the case still would be nice, because - most people out of the box wont get the best experience possible - and if we are dealing with digital color levels this is an unexpected result.

    If wesk05 wants to pitch in - please do so. :)

    Also - in the attached pdf it is mentioned by a Kodi dev/mod, that on certain chipsets near black levels were displayed "too dark" and the manufacturer of a certain Kodi box fixed it after the fact. Might be related.

    - Auto resolution mode now defaults to 1080p, even on a 4K capable LG OLED TV (minor issue might not have to be addressed) - at least in menu.

    - Auto color range now defaults to FULL on an LG OLED TV, even when the TV is set to "limited" (which is the default setting)
    Auto signal range is not available on the TV, when the X9s is connected, although it is available with other playback devices.

    This is an issue that should be addressed somehow (by somehow making limited a default setting), not for me - because I know what setting to pick, but for most people out there. Because currently on many TVs, with standard settings, the X9S will now output a full signal, even when most TVs can be expected to be set to recieve a limited input (regardless of their capabilities displayed in EDID) by default. This is more of a "most people dont look at their settings" issue.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
    nikos_a and boblo like this.
  20. mirror

    mirror Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Zidoo TECH Supporter

    Got it,We have to face all kinds of users. You knows, many TV have non-standard EDID, it will produce black screen. For security reasons, So the auto resolution mode will be defaults to 1080p. Of course, you can set it manually
     

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