Audio Panel internal connections and related "Audio Processing" settings

Discussion in 'ZIDOO X20 PRO' started by Nice Monkey, Jul 31, 2018.

  1. zid2019

    zid2019 Member

    The problem with SACD ISO playback seems to be DST decompression and also for the new player that needs to be done correctly. So i am a lot more optimistic there.[/QUOTE]

    I hope you will be right :)
  2. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    Created some test files using a SACD-ISO as the source with 2CH+MCH audio on it.
    My output is 6 versions in: 2CH+MCH DSF, 2CH+MCH DFF and finally 2CH+MCH DST compressed DFF

    What I saw:
    - DSF (Sony) does not allow DST compression hence 6 versions and not 8. If you have a DSF track you can be sure it is not compressed.
    - If total album is below 1 Gbyte and it is in ISO or DFF then it probably is DST compressed.
    - SACD-ISO's with just 2CH tracks on it are mostly not DST compressed but when combined with MCH also 2CH tracks probably will be.
    - It takes my PC roughly 3x the total duration to extract an SACD ISO when DST decompression is selected.
    - MCH is roughly 3x the size and it takes proportional time to extract. So a MCH DST track takes 9x the processing compared with 2CH uncompressed.
    - DST is indeed very effective in size reduction (reduced with roughly 2.5 factor).

    The above is nicely inline with my previous observations and allows to make the best choices when storing/playing SACD in various formats.
    Personally always store the original ISO's which allows me to burn them to discs when felt appropriate. A good music player should play those all directly. For MCH SACD also store the MCH tracks converted to PCM (FLAC) to enjoy true MCH that way. Only use DSF, DFF with/without DST (or WavPack) for testing occasionally.

    Practical tests using Music Player 3.0:
    - 2CH DSF and 2CH DFF play just fine
    - 2CH DFF with DST compression plays distorted
    - MCH DSF/DFF/ISO won't play at all (regardless DST)
    - ISO 2CH will mostly play fine (=not DST)
    - ISO 2CH/MCH will play the 2CH track distorted (=DST)

    Source Format_______Music Player 3.0__USB Audio Player Pro
    2CH DSF-------------------------------OK------------------------OK
    2CH DFF-------------------------------OK------------------------OK
    2CH DFF+DST-----------------------BAD------------------------X
    MCH DSF-------------------------------X-------------------------OK
    MCH DFF-------------------------------X-------------------------OK
    MCH DFF+DST------------------------X--------------------------X
    2CH ISO--------------------------------OK------------------------OK
    2CH ISO+DST------------------------BAD-----------------------OK
    2CH/MCH ISO+DST----------------BAD-----------------------OK
    PCM/FLAC up 24-192----------------OK------------------------OK
    PCM/FLAC up 32-384---------------- X-------------------------OK

    Results as expected!

    For those having problems with SACD playback: Stay away from MCH ISO and use Sonore ISO2DSD to extract the 2CH track to DSF as those will play fine. Most 2CH SACD's should play from ISO's directly and if not do the same for those (encountered just a very few needing that).

    For MCH SACD the only option is conversion to PCM (FLAC) which next will play via HDMI/SPDIF but obviously loosing the true advantages of DSD.

    Or use a real SACD disc player with MCH DSD via HDMI out. Even there one needs to be careful as not all do actually support MCH SACD (well).
    Remember a quality SACD disc player will facilitate selecting: CD-layer, DSD-2CH or DSD-MCH. SACD-ISO's don't include the CD-layer and Android music players never have a 2CH/MCH select hence implicitly always play the 2CH tracks and never the MCH tracks.

    See table what USB Audio Player Pro does with SACD running on the same Z9S. I think 2CH DFF+DST is not supported to avoid confusion with MCH DFF+DST which presumably is a load which can't be dealt with real time (3x).
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  3. zid2019

    zid2019 Member

    I used Iso2dsd and corverted all my sacd iso files to dual channel "Philips DSDIFF". And Music Player 3.0 wont play correctly.Maybe 1 or 2 tracks but after that device is freezing .or playback dont start.
  4. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    DFF is fine too, I just prefer DSF as then I am always sure it is not DST compressed.

    That problem is known and is another bug not present in older FW's. Has nothing to do with DST. It is one of the current FW instabilities.
    As I mostly play the ISO's don't see it very often, but now while testing I did again.
    You can also run another music APP instead as this problem is not HW related.

    Zidoo needs to come with a Music Player 3.0 update quick to at least solve that nasty problem.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  5. Tibor

    Tibor New Member

    Thank you for testing.
    The results coincide with my experiences.
    I hope they are working on the solution, because it was promised that SACD playback will be fully supported in the X20 pro.
    I decided to buy X20 PRO, because I didn't want to use a PC to play SACD ISO files.
    If I need to use PC, then I connect it to my TEAC-UD505 DAC and I don't have to convert anything.
    So I'm disappointed now:)
  6. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    Which player do you use on your PC to connect to your nice TEAC DAC? Never looked into that but my gear should work that way too.

    You realize that SACD ISO playback can and should be solved, but it will always be converted to PCM using the Zidoo X20 Pro. Only the new UHD2000 will be doing native DSD.

    I presume you also tried connecting the TEAC to the Zidoo? A bit clumsy but works for sure. I am curious about perception in sound quality comparing both.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  7. zid2019

    zid2019 Member

    Hi Nice Monkey! May I ask you how do you get these infos about sacd playback? Did you get any info about decoding sacd files from Zidoo? Or just made tests by yourself and these things what you write just a supposition? Because you wrote many technical info but sacd playback not working yet on x20pro. even if convert to pcm or not.

    My opinion is Zidoo cannot solve the sacd problem on X20pro by software development since a year.Thats why they must to release a brand new model with a new hardware.
  8. Tibor

    Tibor New Member

    Hi Nice Monkey!

    My favorite free music player on my PC is the Foobar2000.
    It can use my DSD:ASIO:TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER as output device. To use it for SACD ISO playback I had to install some components:
    foo_input sacd,
    foo_out asio.
    The output mode is DSD, so it works with minimal processor performance in both case, 2ch and MCH mode.

    The second program is good for playing SACD ISO the JRiver Media Center.
    This also configurable for Bitstreming DSD via ASIO driver.
    This much more complex program, and have to pay for license.
    But you can try it nearly one month.

    I have tried to connect from X20PRO to TEAC UD505 via USB, and play SACD ISO with Music Player3, But I have got just PCM 48KHz.
    On the other hand, if I switched off USB Audio on X20PRO and I connect it via optical cable to TEAC UD505 I have got PCM 176,4 KHz.
    That is why decided to play music on my PC.
  9. Nice Monkey

    Nice Monkey Well-Known Member Beta test group

    I got to the conclusions using my own HW knowledge plus practical testing by me and X20 Pro owners on this forum. Zidoo confirmed my results and these were forwarded to development. The conclusion and problems about DST were confirmed by private mail from Zidoo too.
    Don't own a X20 Pro but PCM output via RCA/XLR should work with SACD ISO/DSF/DFF according the table above.

    The DST problem was solved with FW 2.2.28 and works now (almost) correctly.
    Got a few instances of heavy distortions playing SACD ISO's which started and disappeared after some minutes again for unknown reasons.

    Practical tests using Music Player 5.0:
    - 2CH DSF and 2CH DFF play just fine
    - 2CH DFF with DST compression play just fine

    - MCH DSF/DFF/ISO won't play at all (regardless DST)
    - ISO 2CH will play fine
    - ISO 2CH/MCH will play the 2CH track
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019

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