Ok, my friend, got the Oppo...I also have a HiMedia Q10 Pro very similar to the Zidoo x9s...the Oppo has HDMI in so I ran the q10 pro into the Oppo and used Oppo’s new tone mapping hdr to sdr conversion...oh my gawd! Simply stunning! Oppo got this right! Tons of shadow detail and amazing color sat...
Amazing, my friend. Now lets wait, until the placebo wears off. Also I really get riled up by peoples repeat needs to post their feels over a FREAKING myriad of facts that come down on the side of - "not possible", "high color errors", "no standard", "different gamma transformations needed for 1000 nits and 4000 nits masters (movies)". Also It does really need a special person to care so much about more saturated colors, that they are willing to accept a completely color inaccurate image, just to get that little bit of more punch out of a neon red, or a punchy green, they will be hardpressed to find anywhere in nature. Also - there is no way to get "great shadow detail and superb HDR highlights" into an 8bit color space with a 100nits tops. Also, both Oppo and Panasonic have acknowledged that my giving you "user adjustable gamma levels" for the SDR downconversion. Also I really despise people that can be impressed by brands, and I regret all time I've put into laying out the problem for you. What an utter waste of time.
N.P. you are knowledgeable, but I am afraid you're wrong about OPPO. And again, it's not 8 bit color space, (or conversion to 709), it's true 10 bit 2020 that he is talking about. What he is asking had been done by Oppo, Panasonic and madVR. By the way, I am interested in just turning off HDR metadata, not HDR to SDR conversion. Zidoo will never get the conversion right, because that have not been ankle to solve basic bugs. But blocking the metadata should be easy.
The "being a brandloyal millenial - defending an expensive product you have bought" is strong in you people. But in fact you dont do anything but to promote "how great things are" despite them not even remotely working at all. Five stars. As usual. But first a concession - even though there is no 10bit SDR standard that took of, if whatever player "does the HDR to SDR conversion" output SDR in 10bit, that mitigates some issues. Not the most severe ones, but some. So while the OP now is demanding a non standard conversion to a nonstandard format, in a non standard color space (effectively DCI-P3), at a non standard bitrate (10bit) - and while Oppo apparently "does all of that" - I still have to somehow make it transparent to people reading along, that none of this is recommended, solves a problem - or even comes close to anything you can pronounce "working" much less "a great solution". I'll try one last time, with biggy pictures - because apparently iPhone users ("swipe left") dont believe anything they do not "see and feel" anymore, and when they see, they usually are very impressed - if they see brandname, many likes, and high pricetag - none of it is working even remotely. (Ecosystem issue, what the HECK re you buying your 4K UHD content for, if it is broken? This is the market failing. This is consumers acting because of marketing bullshit, and not to advances the field. And then you are even excited, for buying broken, and pronounce Oppo the best deliverer of broken - e4var, because - hey, thats how you feel. All of this is wrong an makes me ancy on so many levels, you cant even imagine... Lets start. 10 bit setups. Best practice - automatic - HDR to SDR conversion (f*ck Oppo, lets talk about the best algorithms that are out there). THIS is how a HDR to SDR conversion looks like - without a new (non standard) tone mapping: src: https://mixinglight.com/color-tutorial/getting-know-dolby-vision-hdr-part-2/ Gamma is close to correctly mapped in those images as well, so what you are seeing is Color Space compression without correcting colors (color (re-)mapping). Its not certain, that the SDR example in the above image uses a DCI-P3 color space ("Zidoo should output SDR bt2020!" (= effectively DCI-P3)), but using one would have only very minor benefits, compared to far more vast impacts of compressing the color space "in brightness". The error profile you see above would hardly change at all. It is VERY possible, that this is the BEST result you can hope for on ANY Android Box. Also, this is how HDR 10 fundamentally works on all capable displays (compress and forget). Also, if this is what you are seeing on your Oppos, what the frack, are you buying 4K UHD content for? Just leave it on the shelves and walk away. Buy SDR Blurays instead. Now - lets say, that whatever device you are using, does algorithmically based (non standard) color (re-)mapping. In real time - which probably needs a dedicated chip, or will at least produce some probably not negligible processing overhead (thats me saying to you "in code" that those things probably arent very likely to happen on any Android Box) What do the best algorithms produce here currently? (= the thing LG now does for all HDR 10 content (dynamic contrast low since the 7 series, soon to become its own setting toggle), because the HDR 10 standard is broken ). MadVR: Hable's Tone Mapping Reinhard Tone Mapping src: https://jagadeesh.me/2017/10/20/hdr-to-sdr-tone-mappinga-practical-analysis/ Now which of them is "Oppo perfect"? All of them feature different gamma transformations (of course - see "convenient 16 slider levels in Panasonics implementation"), all of them use different automated color mappeing, producing different saturation - mood, and so forth and so on... Now which of you geniuses wants to be the first to pronounce "madVR is BEST" (just like Oppo?). Because thats scene dependent. Throw a different scene of the same, or more problematic a different movie on screen, and the results will be vastly different. Now look at the first image with the two monitors in comparison again. Consider how the right one would look like if gamma was vastly off, because in the image it isnt. None of you geniuses will use the different "gamma modes" in the Oppo or Panasonic in their daily watching sessions. But they have to be used - often, because HDR content gets mastered at different brightness levels depending on the studio. Look at the image on the right and imagine it worse, with highlight clipping or drowning in black. Thats the most likely result you are lobbying for. Now lets talk a bit about the best one. Lets say you get madVR (not the "best" because none is, but lets play with your expectations, as you only go by "things you've seen" and you saw a screenshot just a few seconds ago) still automatic HDR to SDR conversion produces wrong, unintentioned colors, that have to be displayed - in the best practice way, on a non standard, no TV or projector manufacturers event thought about implementing (DCI-P3 10bit). Lets give you even more. Lets say your display is HDR 10 capable, much brighter (less gamma mapping issues) - most likely DCI-P3 capable. Lets say you choose the best auto tone mapping algo you could have made up. In the end, colors still will be unintended, and all over the place. To get this out is important - because it will be the difference between Dolby Vision (re-grading the actual content) and HDR10+ (letting a one fits all algo do it for you). And it will be the next big format war, with uninformed consumers on both sides. If you have any appreciation for the original content, or the color grading process (why not replace a dedicated job profile, with an algo?) - you stop it now. I'm not color mastering professional myself, but this utterly unfounded believe, that you can master HDR to a "less than HDR (as mastered)" nonstandard by using "best algo" in "best product from brand" has to stop. Think of the children. (Or the future of Home Cinema content.) And for the love of the baby bejebus, stop buying 4K HDR content, if your displays are only speced for SDR. Even stop buying 4K HDR content on most HDR10 capable devices out there. (Same issues, just a little more brightness (but still not remotely enough to not be affected by color space compression)). Also - I dont care about getting told that I am "very knowledgeable" as long as in the current political/social environment this does mean nothing, to you people. You still want to drive your decision based on feel and marketing bullsh*t ant thats what I try to go against. I've learned very early in life, that being knowledgable or intelligent doesnt make it likely at all, that people will take your words into account, when they see something thats perceived to be more popular as an alternative. Just sayin'
You LOST me at “brand loyal millennial”...I’m 54 years old! In the 1980’s I was Apple’s sole Technical Systems Engineer in my region...I was “swiping left” long before many folks on here were born...tell ya what, go “borrow” an Oppo 203, a JVC x950 and see for yourself! I know what I see...once you do that, report back and let us know how you feel...
Sorry for that. Its an overgeneralization that really hasnt worked for me hardly ever, and I tend to still want to use as often as possible - just in case It clicks with one of us (younger generation, where there is still hope.. ). But then of course, most people buying 700+USD Hifi Equipment because of purely marketing recommendations are - a little bit older and more affluent. (Custom crafted cynical remark, that now fits your demographic. ) If you can look past it, and still would try to understand the issue - we can still be friends. If not, I still remain whispering to myself - its so easy for you guys, all you ever have to do in the face of people trying to compile and present you with evidence, taking 30 minutes out of their day just to do so - is to counter it with "but I feel differently" - and you have won. There are more of you that would want to go by what they want to believe, than of people who'd actually want to promote factual anything...
Awesome! You are a good man! Thanks for the tremendous insights...FYI, there are 28,000 posts in the Oppo 203 thread and 28,000 posts in the jvc x950 thread, so clearly hdr on projectors is a heated debate
