Can anyone explain encodes that have Dolby Vision Profile 8 along with HDR10/HDR10+ formats?

Discussion in 'General - Guides and FAQ' started by Jimbo Randy, Jul 30, 2023.

  1. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    @Markswift2003 . I am sorry to ping you but I assumed you would know this for sure. What is the attached encoding format? It looks like Dolby Vision Profile 8? But it also has HDR10 and HDR10+ formats? Is this one of those "hybrid" files that we were discussing a while ago in another thread?

    Fyi: this is a show that is only streaming. It streams in both DV and HDR10/HDR10+. Is this file combining the streams? Or is it just for compatibility. In other words, is this one of those hybrid files or nah?
     

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    Last edited: Jul 30, 2023
  2. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Yes it'll be a hybrid produced by stitching the RPU from a profile 5 file onto an HDR10+ file that wasn't mastered for it.

    Streaming companies serve separate streams (files) depending whether SDR, HDR10(+) or Dolby Vision is requested by the client.

    The best thing to do with a hybrid file, if it's all you have, is to remove Dolby Vision with DoviTool.

    I treat them with the same contempt I do for so-called "regrades" where some internet bod thinks he knows better that someone who's done it for years and is acting on instruction from DOPs, Directors and Execs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2023
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  3. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    I found the below in reference to Profile 8. Are you sure that the file I sent a screenshot of is a "hybrid?" Wouldn't it just be from some streaming service that has it encoded in profile 8 so that it can also play on Samsung TVs (HDR10+)? From the below quote it sounds like this is justt how the streaming service had it encoded on their back-end? So the user who encoded this didn't touch the format? The weird thing is that this encode had 10 episodes. Episodes 1 - 8 show normal dolby vision profile 5, but the last two episodes are in the profile 8 format. I do not understand why.

    The below quote was just something I found on Reddit in reference to Profile 8:

    "Dolby Vision 8.1 has HDR fallback. So basically it’s pretty much more relevant to the backend server side in that instead of Apple having multiple versions of films or TV Shows uploaded to their servers to cater for both DV & HDR they can now just have the one. As for infuse it’s not something I use or know anything about."
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2023
  4. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    It's a hybrid. Streaming services serve separate encodes for resolution and\or dynamic range.
     
  5. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    Got it thanks. What is weird is that I found a different encode and those same 2 episodes show as the profile 8 hybrid format. I can't figure out in why in the hell everyone is hybriding those 2 episodes only? Do you have any idea what's going on? I have found a few things saying that apple uses profile 8 on their side so that's why it shows as a "hybrid." You're saying that's not possible though so it's very odd it's the same two episodes, ha.
     
  6. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    The only commercial use of Profile 8 I’m away of is in domestic cameras - I think the iPhone uses it.

    I use it if I want to encode a DV BD rip to save hard disc space but in that case I’m encoding the correct grade and not buggering about with anything.

    But as I’ve said before, people think it’s very clever to strap on an RPU from a different grade. It isn’t. It’s not usually hugely detrimental, it’s just unnecessary.

    But for whatever reason people just seem to like to see the Dolby Vision logo on their TV.
     
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  7. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    Got it, thanks. I agree. It is just very weird that they only did that hybrid format with the last 2 episodes and not the others. And another source also had those 2 episodes in that format. I am not sure what it is about those 2 episodes lol.
     
  8. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    So I know you're going to tell me I'm wrong and I probably am, lol - but I've found like 4 separate encodes now for this show and the last 2 episodes are always in that format. It seems like too much of a coincidence that every single encoder chooses to make those same 2 last episdodes hybrid format...Are you absolutely positively sure there is no possible way that some streaming services have episodes encoded in Profile 8 for compatability? Specifically AppleTV?

    It's just so weird that it's literally just those 2 episodes that everyone is making into hybrid formats. Something seems weird and it's bugging me to figure it out, ha.

    Reddit thread where they claim that AppleTV+ does this? It could be total BS.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/appletv/comments/142s24c/what_does_dolby_vision_81_support_mean_with_tvos/
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2023
  9. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    @Markswift2003 nevermind, I saw that one of the encoders admitted that they are hybrid files. They said they did it for compatability. Idk why these clowns feel the need to screw with this stuff rather than just providing the actual format it was aired in.
     
  10. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    No sh*t :)
     
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  11. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    I have 2 follow-up questions for you to answer at your convenience :)

    1. What is the real-world implications of the "hybrid" format. You said above that it is usually not detrimental to the picture. So if it is done poorly, what exactly would it look like? Just wonky colors/brightness?

    2. If I have a file, is there a way for me to send you a sample to see if it was done crappy? I cannot find a native profile 5 version of one episode for some insane unknown and absolutely infuriating reason.....

    Thank you sir!
     
  12. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    If deliverables are being produced from a Dolby Master (or Mezzanine - a compressed version) then certain creative decisions are made along the way which are incorporated not only into metadata for the Dolby Vision grade, but also into the HDR10 and SDR Grade themselves (since they don't include dynamic data).

    But, if only an HDR10 grade is required (for example a BluRay is being produced in HDR10 only) the Dolby process is bypassed completely and different decisions are made for the actual video grading, again because there will be no dynamic metadata in the deliverable. For HDR10+ it's slightly different, but again, different decisions are made depending on what output(s) is (are) required.

    You can't mix and match these, because if you do you'll end up with a mish mash of decisions made for one grade applying to another and sometimes on top of conflicting decisions already baked in.

    The basic upshot of all this nonsense will probably, in most cases, be perceived as a loss of brightness (brightness is the wrong word, but let's call it that because everyone can relate to it). You'd probably never notice unless you run both grades side by side on a PVM, differences are subtle, but at the end of the day you're not getting what was intended, just what some scrote living in the basement of his mum's house wants because he likes to see a Dolby light on.

    If you must play with hybrids, the best thing you can do is remove the Dolby Vision layer with the excellent DoviTool and if you don't want to mess with a command line, there's a rather splendid batch file that provides a front end, along with all the tools in one place. Kudos to the guys involved in these - they've certainly annoyed a lot of people at Dolby :D.

    https://github.com/quietvoid/dovi_tool
    https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=183479

    But my advice is to steer clear altogether.

    And it's not a case of it being "done crappy", it's inherently crappy and just shouldn't be done at all.

    IMHO.
     
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  13. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    Thanks. That is great information and exactly what I wanted to know. It is truly a shame that people make these types of files. Unfortunately I am seeing more and more of these (clearly mislabeled as DV profile 5, or just labeled as dolby vision) since a certain popular website went dark. These clowns are probably doing this for "compatability" which is stupid. They should just encode separate versions.
     
  14. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    And just to be MORE annoying, this same BS encoder added his stupid logo as "album art" to the files. I had to remove the "album art" with a freaking music player beause I couldn't figure out how to do it otherwise lmfao. So I had to "load" the movie into a movie player and then clear the stupid album art logo as well as other stupid ass tags they added to "advertise." Unbelievable. This is some early 2000s bs. I haven't seen sloppiness like this in over a decade!
     
  15. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    Just trying to understand this from a technical level. I'm confused on your first part. How can a dolby vision profile 5 file contain HDR10 and SDR grades? How does that work? I thought only DV Profile 7 files have HDR10 grades in them? Let me know if i'm completely off. I gues I'm just confused. I understand the motivation (even if i dont agree wiht it) to take a HDR10 blu ray and combine it with the RPU from a DV streaming version. What I don't understand is why people are taking shows that are dolby vision profile 5 and combining them with a HDR10+ version, all in the name of "compatability." Like do these people not realize what they're doing? I'm just very confused because this is ALL I am seeing these days.......no one is posting profile 5s anymore? And no one seems to be comlaining about it. They're all praising these files. I don't understand.
     
  16. Markswift2003

    Markswift2003 Well-Known Member SUPER Administrator Beta test group Contributor

    Yeah, you're confused :p:D

    I was talking about separate grades - ie separate deliverables - not all in one file!!!
     
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  17. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    Got it, yea. Unfortunately it seems like this is how people are encoding now? I just don't get it. They keep claiming it's for "compatibility." They can't all possibly be that dumb, can they? There is no way to combine a dv profile 5 stream and a hdr10 stream without mixing the grades? Like if you encode it usin that profile 8 format, it'll always be using the hdr10 part? It won't play them separately? Hope that makes sense. Just trying to figure out why everyone is using this format now if it's stupid..

    If you can't tell. I am very frustrated lol
     
  18. Jimbo Randy

    Jimbo Randy Active Member

    Again, let me know if I'm wrong but I have been resarching these "hybrid" files and from what I read, it seems like people are saying that it is done for compatability? I haven't seen a single person say anything about different grades or changing the tone of the video or anything.

    Another quote below from Reddit/MakeMKV. Again, are you absolutely sure that these are changing the original profile 5 tone? It seems like the profile 5 layer is played on DV capable devices (which dont have a HDR10 layer). This is saying that if you have a DV device, ONLY the DV profile 5 part is used and it's NOT using the HDR10 base layer. I understand how combining profile

    Let me know what you think and then I'll give it a rest :)

    "Dolby Vision-wise, they're obviously different. The 05 means profile 5. The main profiles are 7 (Blu-ray, dual layer 12 bit) profile 8, which is HDR10 and / or HDR10+ (a hybrid of both HDR10 and / or HDR10+ for compatibility sake which is single layer and 10 bit) and 05, which is a single layered streaming service consisting of a different colour space all together and only accepted by DV certified devices. I don't know what the 06 means. Bit rate-wise, the higher one is obviously, well, higher, but, contrary to popular belief, that doesn't necessarily mean it's better quality. The other one could very well be better quality, efficiency and compression method matters."

    "First one is standard DV release

    The second release is a hybrid. DoVi was injected from DV WEB-DL to HDR10 WEB-DL using a tool (hence lower bitrates). This release will fall back to standard HDR on non-supported devices.

    So, if you have multiple devices or not sure if your device supports DV or would have a DV enabled device in the future, just grab the second release. It will fall back to HDR10 if your device isn't DV supported and if it supports DV then DV will run as usual.

    But if you have DV enabled device(s) then grab the 1st one."


     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2023
  19. limitz

    limitz Member

    This is a late post, but I disagree with the stance on hybrids and it comes down to how they are produced. As long as it's the same master, there is no risk in injecting the DV information over the base video layer. The end-result will look better, but how do we know it's the same master? It generally is consistent by streaming service/distributor.

    Firstly there are 2x ways hybrids are produced. Method 1 is taking the DV information from the WEB-DL (streaming version). The 2nd method takes the DV information from a one UHD disk and puts it onto another UHD disk release (different country/distributor).

    For Method 1, generally the master doesn't differ from SDR, HDR to DV if it's from the same service. Star Wars is a great example. Disney produces the UHD disk, and has 3x copies of the file available for streaming on Disney+. They will serve up the file depending on your TV capabilities. If you strip the DV profile 5 information away from the DV version, you'll find that the base layer is the exact same as the SDR version of the file, which is then the same master as the UHD version.

    Once the master is checked, then the video from the UHD version is synced against the SDR WEB-DL against the initial frame (i-frame), and injection of the DV information is trivial. Dovi tools even provides a place to input the offset. There are some UHD files that have different grades between the WEB-DL and UHD and this source keeps track of that:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jBIGF8XTVi9VmDBZ8a5hEyongYMCDlUiLHU9n1f_S74/edit#gid=0

    These films in Red should not have hybrids produced because the master is different or the FEL layer is non-negotiable. However, all the films in green are okay to produce hybrids, because the master has been verified to be the same. Eg all of the Star Wars films and many others.

    For the Method 2, the same master is used across individual country disks, which will have slight differences despite the shared master, ex: ITA/Eagle Pictures version of Reservoir Dogs has ~15% higher bitrate/detail than the USA/Lionsgate UHD disk (62 vs 54Gb). In other cases, one country might have DV but another country has better video quality. These disks come from the same UHD master and are always a-okay to produce the hybrid. Ghost in the Shell (1995) is a good example. The USA UHD has the DV layer, the JP UHD has better audio, but the GER UHD has the best video (higher bitrate). The hybrid here is to take the DV from the USA disk, apply it to the GER UHD, while syncing the superior audio from the JPN source. Again, same master, no issue.

    You end up with the best HDR, the best audio, on the best video source. Single disks really can't compete at this point, which is why access to hybrids is a necessity in curating the best picture quality possible for a collection. It's also why streaming boxes are a necessity in the modern home theater because frequently, the best PQ/audio quality is not on any single disk. Has to be mix and match, and has to be played back as a remux.

    For films like Ghost in the Shell and the Star Wars series the hybrids are without a doubt better than the vanilla UHD disk or remux. For others, they shouldn't be produced (above Google link).

    Really the UHD disk is the minimum quality and hybrids can and should be made to elevate them more. The hybrid of Empire Strikes Back is a great example. Only enhances the UHD and being a dolby vision fanatic, I could never go back to the regular disk. There is zero downside in this case. For other hybrids, as long as they're on the green list above, they should be fine.

    Extended sidebar:

    That said, we can't really get into quality control on hybrids without delving more into the remux release groups (Framestor, Cinephiles, 3L, Epsilon, Flux, Wildcat, etc) and the role private trackers play in the ecosystem. These groups produce 99% of the hybrids (and regular remuxes for that matter) that float around, and release on only 4x invite only communities (PTP, HDB, BHD, BLU).

    The release groups are extremely diligent when creating hybrids as the four communities acts as a peer review. Improper hybrids get removed very quickly. As long as the hybrid remux is from a reputable group, there generally is no issue. Any improper masters are quickly pointed out and either corrected to use something else (PROPER) or removed. This is the currently accepted tier ranking of the most reputable remux/hybrid release groups (click the JSON):

    https://trash-guides.info/Radarr/Radarr-collection-of-custom-formats/#remux-tier-01

    Hundreds to thousands of videophiles will get their eyes on any hybrid, and improper ones just aren't allowed to stand. By the time the hybrid floats around online, you can be sure the quality has been checked, and rechecked.

    To say it's some nerd in a basement that wants to see a DV logo is oversimplifying, and not really how it works from creation, to QC, to dissemination. The people making hybrids are like you and me, but passionate about producing the best PQ file regardless of what it takes and generally work in teams (release groups). The top private trackers serve as the peer review and QC. Each release group will only release onto 1 of the 4 private trackers (INTERNAL). But each tracker could host multiple release groups.

    Some people will just collect disk hybrids but not WEB-DL. In fact PTP only allows disk hybrids, while BHD allows both. But no conversation on hybrids is complete without bringing up the private trackers, so I feel like it's important to include this detail here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2024
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