Is there a way to watch DV Content as HDR10+ via Tone Mapping?

Yes, kind of... I assume you meant you set the Dolby Block to 400 rather than 5400nits? Otherwise, I can't make sense of it. So it sounds like HDFury is inevitable. However, if so, why are some claiming that you can achieve the same result with a much cheaper alternative like EZCOO SP12H2Pro if you are ok with setting your projector into HDR mode manually? I assume it will not spoof the HDR message so it will not send tweaked HDR10 MaxCLL/MaxFALL either, right?

 

Ha, yes, sorry - typing on an iPad...

I have no idea what an EZCOO is, but from a quick Google, I don't think it'd do it.

With the Vertex 2 you set the HDR SEI parameters, for example, as below, and set it to send those only when an LLDV signal is received on the input - you can also set the custom EDID on the Vertex which is more versatile than doing on the Zidoo, so the source (Zidoo) sends LLDV and the Vertex injects the HDR message to which the display responds.

The main reason for doing this is to get native Dolby Vision on a non Dolby Vision display, but you can also use it with VS10 for HDR10 and SDR.

 

@Markswift2003 Regarding EZCOO I was referring to this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/al...-enabling-lldv-please-read-posts-1-2.3254266/

 

Ok, so that only allows you to use a custom EDID and nothing more - the Zidoo already does that on its own.

 

@Markswift2003 One more question: Will the HD Fury Arcana do the same job as Vertex 2 with regard to LLDV? From the User‘s Manual it should but want to be sure. Thanks!

 

Yes it can - The Arcana is a set and forget device, so useless for trouble shooting and diagnostics, but great if you just want to stick it in the chain for one job.

You'd use LLDV Sync in the HDR menu, set 400nits/BT.2020 in the LLDV menu.

 

Hi @Markswift2003 , I now ordered a Vertex 2 but after studying the manual of Vertex 2 and the Arcana I am wondering if the latter would have been the better choice for the following reasons:

1. It has a HDR boost option so can add a positive/negative offset to the incoming HDR metadata nits rather than just replacing them with a fixed value. However, probably the Vertex 2 can do this, too, but I did not find it in the manual.
2. It has the LLDV sync option as you mentioned above, however, probably just a convenience option?
3. It has LLDV force option that "If selected LLDV support will be forced", "HDR metadata is injected when content is LLDV". I think this is important as I do want to have standard HDR10 just passed through. Is this possible with the Vertex?

Somehow I've got the impression that the Arcana is better tailored to the use case of LLDV spoofing? And this is really all I need... The only downside I see for the Arcana is that it cannot be remote controlled via network but only RS-232.

Referring to your previous explanations, I am wondering if injecting a fixed value for MAXFALL is a good fit for any content pre-tonemapped by the LLDV capable player? However, the Arcana is solely talking about Max/Min nits in its settings so I am wondering what it will do on MAXFALL. Do you know? By the way what is the difference between Max Luminance and MaxCLL on the Vertex' HDR/DV Tab?

Thanks for you help!

 

1. You can set all the HDR parameters to whatever you want with the Vertex - it is way more configurable than the Arcana

2. Again, the Arcana has a simplified version - with the Vertex the options are way more configurable.

3. Again, as #2 above, options are way more configurable, but to use custom HDR message for LLDV only you tick "Use custom HDR for TX0 and TX1 when input is LLDV" in the HDR/DV tab.

The Arcana is a simple set and forget device with limited options and the Vertex allows you to tailor every parameter individually, although it can be somewhat of a learning curve.

On the Vertex HDR/DV Tab you have MaxCLL/FALL which are self explanatory and Min/Max Luminance are Min/Max MDL values. Some displays react to CLL/FALL, some to MDL so it's always best to set both.

A good starting point for LLDV spoofing is MaxCLL and Max Luminance to 1000nits, MaxFALL to 400 and Min Luminance to 0.0001 and use an EDID with MaxPQ of 1000nits in the Dolby Block.

Depending on the display, a cleverer approach is to use 400nits as the max values, say pick something like 200 for FALL and use a 400nit Dolby block - that way VS10 is doing tone mapping over 400nits and up to 400nits is usually well within most TV's capabilities.

 

@Markswift2003 ok, sounds good, so looking forward to receive my Vertex 2 in some days and give it a try! But honestly, still wondering about how a fixed MaxFALL will do the trick as it is the "Maximum Frame Average Light Level" so will vary based on given content, doesn't it? Shouldn't the LLDV player provide this info dynamically?

 

That's the whole point of LLDV - it's Player Led Dolby Vision, so the dynamic tone mapping happens in the player and is output, pre-mapped, over a static gamma in the same way as HDR10.

 

Hi @Markswift2003 I've got the Vertex2 now and did my first experiments in combination with a S905X4 SoC based player running CoreElec NG (so with Profile 7 FEL support - proven by test video).
I started with your Custom #10 EDID and set HDR info accordingly (followed a PDF doc which I suppose is authored by you?). I tested some UHD video files, all guaranteed to have Dolby Vision and compared the playback against playing ordinary HDR10 with my old Vero 4k.
Hard to say as switching / re-sync with the Vertex2 in the chain (between player and AVR) is very long but I really tried hard to see a difference but couldn't. Is the advantage really that subtle? Or is the tone mapping of the Sony XW5000 and its Contrast Optimizer doing a really good job against what many say. The interesting thing is that fiddling with the HDR info frame min/max Nits had absolutely no effect. Apparently the XW5000 just ignores this metadata? I then changed to a custom DV block with Max Nits = 400 as you suggested. No difference to notice. Then I tried the extreme with Max Nits = 100 which in fact showed a difference - everything looking like SDR, all highlights gone. That makes me believe that I did everything correct. Also the Vertex2 OSD proves LLDV to be enabled.
I tried with a number of videos, spanning MaxCLL from just 200 to 2000. I was hoping that at least the FEL layer would bring a noticeable improvement. Maybe it would show in a side-by-side comparison but I don't have the possibility for that. But if the difference is only noticeable by a direct comparison I don't think that the costs of a Vertex2 in combination with being very limited in the selection of a media player (if you want it all incl. FEL). Still wondering why you have this setup in place even with a JVC which's tone mapping is known to be superior to Sony's.

Maybe, and I say maybe as I could also fancy this, the colors are a little bit more expressive and the contrast is slightly better. But what I was actually looking for is that movies that I supposed to be too dark will show lighter with LLDV in place so that you see more details in darker areas. This is definitely not the case at all. I am sorry, but to me this hack looks like snake oil.

Anything I probably overlooked?

 

It's definitely not snake oil - but it's not a paradigm shift either - it's just a method to allow any HDR10 display to show true native Dolby Vision. Very simple.

Now whether you see a difference between an HDR10 grade and a Dolby Vision grade is another matter. If the guy in Post has done his job properly, then you're not really supposed to (within certain parameters).

And as to whether you see a difference between a FEL presentation or its Profile 8 equivalent is another matter entirely - and again, if that guy and his trackball have done the job properly, then yes, the differences are that subtle. I have a device running CoreElec here but it'd be a cold day in hell before I install it in my cinema - it's way too flakey and even if it wasn't, personally I very much dislike Kodi so that's enough of a non-starter for me.

Some displays incorrectly use MaxMDL instead of MaxCLL, so maybe that's what you're seeing - I'm not sure about Sony. My Samsung certainly ignores MaxCLL so you have to factor that in. My old JVC ignored absolutely everything and relied on one single gamma curve. The new one takes everything into account, which is handy to know.

Keeping a Vertex in line is utterly invaluable for diagnostics and also for automation using a custom HDR SEI only when needed (ie when it receives an LLDV signal). I genuinely wouldn't be without them.

I'm still in flux as to how to use HDR on the new PJ, but currently my best setup is LLDV at 1000 nits and Frame by Frame DTM. That way the Dolby circuitry only tone maps above 1000nits - so for the most part it's dormant although certain trims are still used, and the JVC does most of the heavy lifting as far as basic tone mapping goes. Seems to be a good trade off.

But everyone's setup is different and everyone's environment is different so I'm not in the slightest bit surprised at your comments. But at the very least you now have the ability to view Dolby Vision content natively on a display that's not supposed to be able to do it.

 

Hi @Markswift2003, thanks for your feedback! Well, I think I don't need a Vertex for the reason of diagnostics at least I never missed it so far in my quite simple setup. For me, it just adds complexity which I only see justified if it brings a clearly noticeable improvement in image quality. I don't see a good reason for getting my projector to play Dolby Vision content if it does not pay off. Maybe for extreme cases like Sully which is claimed to have up to 9000 nits it would bring a benefit (apart from that it has no Dolby Vision afaik) but these cases are rare these days.
I started this experiment mainly motivated by euphoric reports of others on different forums where some claimed a "day-and-night" improvement. I just can't fathom this experience. What probably should have made me suspicious is that these people never posted photos or screenshots that would illustrate the difference, I think these reports are overstated. But ok, maybe for older projectors with a really bad built-in tone mapping it might be the case.

Anyway, what is MaxMDL? I did not find any explantion for it. The Sony seems to have 2 fixed EOTFs (HDR 10 + HDR10 reference) where the latter is meant for content with max 1000 nits (so I suppose the former allows more?). In fact, the HDR10 ref has a slightly darker look.
As the Sony seems to ignore the static HDR10 metadata I probably get the same effect by enabling VS10 DV -> HDR10 conversion as we discussed earlier above?

 

MDL is Mastering Display Luminance - it's just the specification of the display used in the Grade - kind of irrelevant to the content, but often reported in a file's HDR metadata.

I suspect (but don't know) that the Sony may use that instead of CLL/FALL.

 

Well, I played with different values keeping "Max Luminance" and "MaxCLL" in sync in the HDR/AVI Tab of Vertex Web UI so apparently it does not take care of either.

 

Maybe Dolby Vision just isn't for you

You're definitely not alone!

 

Hi @Markswift2003, I'm trying sort out the Vertex 2 with my Ziddo Z9X pro.
I have 2 displays that are hooked up to the Vertex 2 - an LG C4 OLED & a Hisense/Vidda C1S projector that has only HDR10/+, so adding to it LLDV would be beneficial.

Is there a way to set the Vertex 2 so that my LG would be only tv led and the projector to be player led?

 

Not easily.

The current spec for Dolby Blocks in EDID can only select between LLDV or LLDV + TV Led. There is no option for TV Led on its own with current EDID spec.

I suppose it would be possible to use an old Version 1 Dolby Block in the EDID where only TV Led was available, but then you'd need a mechanism to switch EDIDs in the Vertex for a given input (the Zidoo).

This is possible using RS232 - so for example, very easy if you have a CI system like Crestron and the skills to program it - the protocol is very easy to implement assuming you know what you're doing. and you could tie that to code when displays are switched.

You could also use an HDMI switcher in front of the Vertex to switch the Zidoo from say Input 0 to Input 1 and have separate EDIDs on each input, but again requires an old V1 EDID.

There are probably other ways, but I can see issues with all of them because you're changing EDID on the fly and that's not always a smooth road.

The only other option is to manually change DV mode on the Zidoo but that's not really ideal either.

My advice is stick to LLDV on both displays - very easy then.

 

Thanks, I'll try to got LLDV on both and see how it goes.
BTW, in the "Using Vertex 2 for LLDV on HDR10 TV" PDF you need to choose custom #10. Is there a reason for that? what are the other first custom options for?

 

Custom 10 was originally a BT.2020 LLDV EDID I wrote for HDFury - I think it may have been updated since.

Basically 1 - 10 are custom slots into which you can upload your own EDID but they default to the EDIDs as descibed and unfortunately if you upload your own, the names do not update so you have to remember what you put where.

This is where it gets problematic for you because to spoof LLDV in a PJ you generally use an EDID with BT.2020 primaries defined in the Dolby Block because you're telling the PJ that it's receiving HDR10 with BT.2020 targets.

I don't know what the targets are in your TV, but if you send me its EDID I can tell you and you need a Dolby Block with the similar targets and an HDR message from the HDFury with the same targets so that they match otherwise colours will be off in the TV. Problem is you either have to choose BT.2020 or DCI-P3 in the Vertex (and Rec.709, but that's not applicable here).

You might get lucky and the TV may already have BT.2020 targets - most displays tend to be close to either BT.2020 or DCI-P3.

Anyway, if you post the TV's EDID I can tell you which settings to use.