Z9X 8K Dolby VS10 is worse than Z9X Pro and Dune 8K

You tell me what you think!!!
Good day.....

 

On Samsung S90C i use VS10 for Dolby Vision content to play video with DV. I confirm the problem with the increased black level in this mode. That is, black is slightly gray.
Even black bars at the top and bottom of the video, which should always be black, are gray.

 

Hello everyone, I just purchased my first Zidoo, replacing my Coreelec N2+. It’s the Z9X Pro model.

I currently have a Sony VPL 65ES projector, ( with Cambridge 751R) which is SDR, and the reason for my switch is to benefit from a good HDR to SDR conversion, something that wasn’t handled well with the Coreelec. I see that many of you have significant expertise in this area, and I’d like to seek your advice. What settings should I use on my Zidoo to play SDR sources, which I already have, as well as HDR sources, which previously didn’t display well and appeared completely washed out?

Thank you for your time, and I wish you all a good day. Nicolas

 

This is how I'd set up for that PJ:

Playback/Automatic frame rate/Frame rate mode: Match frame rate only

Display/Resolution: 1920x1080p 23Hz

Display/Color Settings/4K 50~60Hz: Priority YUV420 8BIT
Display/Color Settings/4K 23~30Hz: Priority YUV422 12BIT
Display/Color Settings/Non-4K: Priority YUV422 12BIT
Display/Color Settings/HDMI color range: Auto
Display/Color Settings/Deep Colour compatibility mode: Turn Off
Display/Color Settings/HDMI Signal format: Standard format

Display/HDR: Dolby Vision VS10 Engine (Output SDR)

Audio/HDMI Audio: Auto
Audio/Downmix HD Audio output: OFF

 

Thank you very much Markswift2003 for your detailed response! I’ll try these settings over the next few days and will keep you updated.

 

Thank you, this is exactly where i was going with my post, see here: http://forum.zidoo.tv/index.php?thr...r-aml-s928x-players.98556/page-10#post-237116

i really prefer tonemapping to be done by the box. z9x pro did a pretty good job here with a lot of picture detail and a bright presentation. z9x 8k is disastrous and most of the time has a far to dim picture....(as if "light power" of my screen got tuned down by 50%)

only bought the z9x 8k for improved vs10 capabilities (and native plex app)...otherwise there's no selling point here, 8k content is non-existent and there is no DV FEL support on z9x 8k.

I'm afraid i cannot set my hopes on (eventual) future fixes in firmware...

a lot of money for a successor thats actually a step back..

+1 for that! at the moment 8k is no replacement.

am i mistaken or are we still waiting for "tomorrow" here?!

 

Agree. I switch back to the Z9X Pro as my main player. It's really sad considering that I really like the new music player, new 4K GUI, HT 5.0 and 8K in Youtube. But tonemapping on the previous player is certainly better. The problem is not only tonemapping, but also color clipping and some bugs. You can clearly see this in S&M test patterns and on real content too (bird with green wing in my comparison screenshots and warning lights in mad max).

I don't think they will fix anything in the new firmware based on my past experience. But I will hope for the best.

Examples of tonemapping bugs on Z9X 8K:
DV -> VS10 -> SDR:






Z9X Pro vs Z9X 8K (look at the face):
HDR10 -> VS10 -> SDR:

Pro:


8K:

 

Your posts are really interesting! I hope they at least can adress the bugs. However I found that a lot of DV movies are much more balanced on the 8K. I have a few examples from my old entry TCL TV. This is not where I watch my movies btw but the results in the cinema room with my Sony VW325ES are pretty much the same. Not exactly the same frames compared but still a comparison. I found a lot of clipping in highlights on the Pro.

Pro DV -> VS10 -> SDR


8K DV -> VS10 -> SDR


Pro DV -> VS10 -> SDR


8K DV -> VS10 -> SDR


Pro DV -> VS10 -> SDR


8K DV -> VS10 -> SDR


Pro DV -> VS10 -> SDR


8K DV -> VS10 -> SDR

 

What yuv-color settings did you use?

 

I'm sad because I sent back my Z9x Pro for a Z30 Pro 8k yesterday, and now reading this post
I'm using the VS10 to SDR conversion 100% of the time...
Is something planned to fix this ? What should I buy then :|

 

I did cancel my order for the Z30 Pro 8k waiting for a fix (so now I'm without any media player )

Maybe a stupid question but I guess this issue is impacting all new models ?

 

Glad I read that, I was about to order one to upgrade but since I use lldv all the time through a vrroom to map correctly my ls12000, I might wait a bit.

Question to Mark, looks like you are using the same trick, would it work with the new plex native client on the 8k series?
I would use that instead of ht5 if it would.

 

LLDV is superb with these players - content mapping is carried out correctly above 1000nits and CMv4.0 is supported in LLDV - unlike other AML and Realtek players.

I use it on both my NZ800 (which has DTM) and my Samsung flatscreen.

Yes, the native Plex and Jellyfin clients use the Zidoo player, so it of course works with them too. I use HT5 for 4K content and Jellyfin for 2K and docos with a mixture of Rec.709 HD and FHD, all mapped into BT.2020 LLDV.

 

Oh so you map to bt2020...
I was told on AVS to map on REC709 for best result with my LS12000. The topic is one about enabling lldv on the epson.
Honestly, when I fiddle with the light output and the HDR slider, DV is really really good. And SDR is magnified with the VS10 engine.

Ok, I will keep on reading this topic and when things are sort out, I guess I'll get an 8k unit.

Also, I had a question for you, the 8K zidoo is using the amlogic chip, I heard it has a problem with FEL7 due to conflict between hardware and software (the dv thingy being in a kernel which is not the correct version in the amlogic chip), do you know about that?
People are saying to people buying Ugoos for Coreelec to stir away from newer generation because of that and fall back on the AM6+, a 2021 device.

 

No, you definitely don't map to Rec.709 if you're using LLDV. The only reason you'd map to Rec.709 is if you're mapping to SDR luminance as well - so I think that may be a case of getting wires crossed somewhere.

I haven't been able to replicate the issues brought up in this topic - I have two go to scenes when assessing tone mapping - one is the old faithful Aquaman scene with the gold guy telling Jason Momoa off and the other is the ship yard explosions in Wall-E. Both are tough cookies to tone map. I tend to ignore The Meg because it's one of those early 4000nit masters where they were guessing and thought HDR meant more brightness! And it was mastered on a 1000nit PVM despite the fact the metadata gives MDL as 4000nits!

Both those scenes are very well tone mapped by the 8K to SDR and in both cases, they benefit from the RPU being used in the DV > SDR conversion and more so with the 8K because it uses a newer Dolby library and the RPU is used more accurately. Compared to the Realtek box (and the Dune 8K which uses older libraries) the tone mapping is better on the 8K than Realtek.

In Aquaman the window detail is lost on the older boxes but much more pronounced with the 8K. Similarly with Wall-E, the explosions and colour changes on the hull of the ships are handled better rather than blowing out.

There are always going to be casualties when you try to tone map HDR into SDR - you're reducing dynamic range dramatically by trying to compress say 1000nits down to 100 to 200nits but maintaining diffuse white at 100nits at the same luminance level - this leaves very little overhead above white to play with which is why dynamic tone mapping is so desirable - a static map tars everything with the same brush.

Yes, I've been talking to djnice77 about FEL on the 928 - initially I was hopeful, but having made a few enquiries, now I'm not so sure - initially he thought it was an AML bug in the newer kernel but it's increasing looking like it's not possible due to hardware - I'm still waiting for a definitive answer.

In the meantime, the Zidoo effectively performs a P7 to P8 conversion by removing metadata associated with the FEL and changing the RPU header so we don't see unwanted effects from the RPU because of a missing FEL so I'm not losing much sleep over it.

 

Very interesting feedback, thank you for your time. It's clear for me about the 928 FEL topic now

For the REC709, here is an extract from the topic on AVS :

Luckily, LLDV can provide a work-around. This is especially true if using a player that can do LLDV-all-the-time. See the players post for details about support and configuration for LLDV-all-the-time.​

The projector can't do anything close to BT2020, so it has some matrix math algorithm that maps BT2020 to the projector's native gamut. But there is a bug in the algorithm. It is important to note that the BT2020 and BT709 selections on the projector should really be called 'BT2020 mapping on' and 'BT2020 mapping off'.​

LLDV allows for color gamut mapping as well. So instead of going from:
BT2020 source->LLDV->Projector BT2020 mapping
we tell LLDV to map to the projector's native gamut and get:
BT2020 source->LLDV w/mapping to native gamut->Projector in BT709 mode (really mapping off mode)​

It comes from here : https://www.avsforum.com/threads/epson-ls11000-12000-projector-lldv-enablement-and-tuning.3262145/
Though, I don't have the same projector so that might be it because they are talking about a bug in the algorithm and the epson does not have a dtm, the newer version of it, the qb1000 has one.

I have an 77CX LG Oled screen right behind my projector's screen and it looks alright in comparison. My tough cookie scene is at 1h7min in 1917, that one will directly tell you if the near dark are bad or not.
And honestly, that was my biggest concern about dv/hdr on a projector coming from a vw290, you were not able to see properly details in dark scenes, very frustrating.
I will have a look at the scenes you are talking about to chek the high lights.

 

Hmm - I see the logic, but the problem is that generally speaking, most projectors will come nowhere near BT.2020 anyway - BT.2020 is a target - you aim in that direction for each colour and the display does the best it can and most can get near P3 so it's not the huge issue that it looks like. You're not remapping in the traditional sense, the vectors are the same. It's a target.

So are you able to set BT.709 colour in the projector but still use ST.2084 gamma? That's kind of important!! You can't just use Rec.709 since that will use Power Gamma which will kill HDR.

My gut feeling is that although the DV Block allows you to specify whatever colour targets you want, if you specify BT.709 it's a bit like specifying 100nits as the luminance target - on the face of it a great idea for a projector, but in reality, because of the way PQ (Perceptual Quantiser*) works, a terrible idea because the gamma is far too compressed resulting in a very dull image.

* I always feel I need to specify that PQ means Perceptual Quantiser because so many people mistakenly use it to mean Picture Quality.

 

They have been discussing the gamma on the topic.
It is difficult to know what's what.

Would it be possible for me to send you a PM or if there is a dedicated topic to ask you some questions about the zidoo config and the vrroom config to perform the lldv trick?

But in the mean time, I got an 8k z9x Eager to try it. I will use custom folder this time

 

PM is fine, but I kind of prefer on forum because it can help others as well.. Zidoo config stuff may be better here:

http://forum.zidoo.tv/index.php?thr...her-useful-stuff-for-aml-s928x-players.98556/

Or start a new thread.

 

Hello Mark,

do you mean that all SpikeSIK exemples and comparisons are, at the moment, not reproductible and issue is still not confirmed ? Is someone from zidoo looking into all the infos/screens he provided with you/him ?

Still waiting to order the New version

Thanks again for all the effort and feedback.