That's why I am confused, if HDR and BT. 2020 are basically the same thing, then what is the new function "HDR-> BT 2020" supposed to do? Thanks
They are not the same thing at all. They are 100% complementary: one improves the color spectrum and the other one contrast. TV displays may support either one or both. Mostly they come together in the technical specification. Specifically BT2020 is difficult to implement 100% and mostly will be implemented partially (improved spectrum but not reaching full BT2020). Also HDR10 (worse HDR10+ and DV) is implemented in different ways varying with the actual display technology used (LED, QLED, OLED etc). This is the untold story. With TV's BT2020 will normally go together with HDR but projectors may support BT2020 without including HDR. For the last category the new option makes sense. My own Epson projector does both so i will stick to "Auto" as I don't really like the SDR => HDR upscaling neither for my TV nor for my Projector. My projector needs to be set to high output mode for HDR but SDR works just fine with ECO mode (less power, longer bulb life and less noise of the fan).
Just to add to what Mark said, this is what I summarized to Zidoo: Existing modes when the playing video is HDR: HDR (original untouched) - BT2020 Converted to SDR - BT709 - converted via the options Vivid, Bright, etc New mode when the playing video is HDR: Converted to SDR - BT2020 - converted via the options Vivid, Bright, etc
Thanks guys. How do you guys handle the different video settings required for HDR vs SDR (eg brightness and contrast level right for HDR is way too high for SDR) when the zidoo does not provide custom/profile settings of video parameters? I didn't realise this is an issue until recently quite a few SDR files look way too bright/overexposed as the video parameter is set for HDR. (also I have been troubled with the issue of z9r applying wrong color gaumet for the files resulting in (mostly) HDR files look washed out/pale and there is no manual override to correct it.) Your insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks
If you have the Zidoo set to HDR Auto and you have a HDR capable TV, there should be no need to adjust anything - the video passes through as is and the TV should decode with the correct gamut and gamma. In this mode the Zidoo does nothing to the gamut, gamma, contrast or brightness, and neither should it. If SDR looks way too bright and colour is very oversaturated, this usually means the TV is locked in HDR mode and decoding Rec.709 colour as BT.2020 and is applying an HDR PQ gamma where it should be a standard gamma. If you're seeing washed out HDR images that usually means the TV is similarly decoding in the wrong gamut with the wrong gamma - ie its HDR mode is not being triggered and it's decoding BT.2020 as Rec.709 with a standard power law gamma.
Oh icic... My zidoo is set to HDR Auto and I am using an xgimi 4K Lune projector which supports HDR. I would say they work correctly with maybe 85% of the files (always the same files having the same issue). Too bad there seems to be no setting to manually set the gamma on either machine (I used to have a Sony x940E which allows manual setting of HDR modes). Thanks
First thing to do is check with MediaInfo that the HDR files which look washed out do indeed contain the HDR metadata.
Wanted to share with everybody the great results with the new SDR BT2020 conversion feature, which was made available on the latest beta firmware 2.2.78. Zidoo has done an outstanding job and the conversion from HDR to SDR BT2020 works really well !! Projector users will certainly benefit from it, as most projectors allow the manual selection of BT2020, while playing a 4K SDR content. In my oppinion the results are better than other players such as the OPPO 203, as for example there is no black crush (there is on the OPPO 203), no posterization and the highlight cutoff curve is smooth with no instability (a problem also found on the OPPO). You can chose any of the gamma conversion curves (bright, Vivid, Movie) depending on the HDR nit content, and after some tweaking on the gamma settings of my projector, the results are very good. The only caveat is that I had to significantly tweak the gamma adjustments on my JVC RS540 projector, in order for the final picture to resemble a typical 2.3 SDR gamma. I had to bring brightness to -20 and boost contrast to +50(!), at the same time I selected gamma 2.6 and tweaked down the tone to -17. It seems a bit strange, but the final picture was gorgeous ! Thanks again Zidoo for listening to customer feedback and improving the Z9S !! GREAT JOB.
Thanks guys, I have updated to the latest firmware 2.2.82, it doesn't fix the problem with the certain HDR files not displayed as HDR (colour washed out). How to lobby Zidoo to fix this? Do we consolidate a list in this forum? The SDR.BT2020 function doesn't benefit me as my projector (Xgimi Lune 4K) supports HDR all along.
See my reply here: http://forum.zidoo.tv/index.php?thr...triggered-removing-osd-text.49048/#post-91110 This is most likely a file problem - what does MediaInfo say?
Thanks Markswift, I have posted the metainfo on the other thread just now. Look forward to your guidance, Thanks
Just about to give this a try. I'm currently using an Epson LS10000 projector and an Oppo 203 to tone map. Which setting are most preferring Bright, Vivid or Movie? And I prefer to adjust brightness/contrast/tone in the Zidoo since I already calibrated my projector from the Oppo, is that possible? I always have found adjusting those settings in the zidoo troublesome because I have to exit all the way out the the menus and it is no longer passing rec2020. Am I missing something that allows adjustment in a movie? Thanks
Initially I thought Vivid provided the best results (before the new SDR BT2020 option became available), but I decided to experiment with the other settings and now, with the SDR BT2020 feature I actually prefer the Movie mode. I have used a separate slot on my JVC projector for the Zidoo SDR BT2020 option, and the gamma tweaking had to be significant. You may try to do brightness and contrast tweaks on the Z9S itself, but I suspect it may not be enough to share settings with the OPPO.
So far on initial tests, I'm getting the best results with Bright and adjusting the projector gamma to +2 (leaving color calibration in place). That said, the image is different than the Oppo. Colors are more saturated, not sure which is more "correct" or preferred at the moment. I can always dial down the saturation a bit on the projector and keep a rec2020 Oppo and a rec2020 Zidoo setting (thought that complicates things for the wife and kids)
Okay, experimented with more video including dark scenes. Only way I can get a remotely decent image is Vivid and maxing out the contrast on the Zidoo. Image is good but not as good as if I play the file directly on the Oppo. I experimented with all sorts of settings on the projector to no avail. I will use this for now but I hope Zidoo refines this more because the gamma/contrast is still not right. I think you need to be able to set a target luminance like you can on the Oppo.
I have been trying to dial in a better picture of the last several days and nothing looking much better. After doing some research I'd urge Zidoo to try and emulate what Panasonic has done with their players. The HDR Optimizer on their UHD players sounds like the best option out there for projector owners.
You can ask anything, but be aware that HDR implementations, conversions and upscaling is done in HW by the chip/soc. What is not implemented there can't be activated by mere FW changes. Here we also see the main difference between RTD1295 and RTD1296 player capabilities. http://forum.zidoo.tv/index.php?threads/rtd1295-versus-rtd1296-in-detail.49034/ With the recent FW updates Zidoo activated all mentioned new RTD1296 specific capabilities. Earlier FW's for the new models only took advantage of the improved I/O throughput and corrected design shortcomings (mostly remaining hidden).
I figured out my problem, the EDID switch on my HDFury Vertex got bumped and it wasn't doing 2020. Now using straight Movie mode and dialed up contrast to 42 and balance down to 30 and it looks 1000% better.
I tried to get some info about the gamma curves Vivid, Bright and Movie from Zidoo, but they don't have any details so I suspect they are just switched in the SDK and can't be fiddled with. I don't know this for sure, but since UHD material is encoded using a PQ (perceptual Quantiser) curve for HDR which is a kind of S curve as below, I think the way the gammas work is "Vivid" deepens the low end curve near black and emphasises the roll off curve while "Bright" straightens the start of the curve somewhat, steepens it and clips more at the top. "Movie" seems to be the most accurate representation of the PQ curve so my view would be that's the one to choose and then check Black Level (Brightness) and White Level (Contrast) with UHD HDR test patterns (I use R Masciola's patterns, but there are free ones out there). I suspect it hard clips at 4000nits but don't know this for sure.
Interesting this new media box is claiming support etc for the new HDR10 + i wonder if the 1296 chipset can support it or can be added in the future via firmware ?
