v1.2.22, v1.2.22_G Beta version for Z9X 8K/Z30 PRO/Z3000 PRO/UHD8000 (UPDATE)

Ok, cheers Mark.

Edit - just to remind you (previous conversations), the level mismatch is there when setting the Zidoo to RGB also.

 

So there's something really odd going on with Sony here.

I'm probably going to have to get verbose and convoluted here, so if I do, please forgive me, but this is a bit nuts.

I have a Samsung. And as we know that doesn't have Selectable HDMI Range for YCbCr. However, that absolutely doesn't negate it from the tests because it uses limited range for YCbCr and that's what we want. And as we've seen previously, white cuts at 235 for SDR. There's a strange ringing to it which I can't figure out, but it definitely cuts at 235.

I also have a Finlux which does have Selectable HDMI Range like every other TV manufacturer and again, white cuts at 235 for SDR. No ringing. Perfectly normal.

And I have a JVC NZ800 projector. And that is the most reliable for such a test because I know JVCs inside out, upside down and backside up and there is very little in the way of buggering about with all the stupid picture modes that TVs have - it has controls that do what they say they'll do (more on that for the Sony in a minute) - it's designed with calibration in mind. And the JVC cuts perfectly at 235 for SDR.

And then I have a Sony.

I've kind of always disliked my Sony. Two reasons - one it runs Android so all the picture controls are decided by Mr Google and not Sony, and two, it's horribly underpowered. But it is a few years old, so I forgive it and we happily use it for watching telly while having tea. I'm never too fussy watching Kirsty & Phil.

And my Sony cuts at 255.

And I don't know why.

But I do know that the controls don't do what they say they'll do. Brightness on any TV is Black Level and Contrast on any TV is White Level. Except the bloody Sony!

Like yours, if I adjust Contrast, thinking I'm adjusting White Level, I'm not! It does the same as yours - Goodness knows what it's adjusting, but it ain't White Level!!

And Brightness isn't Black Level either - it sort of makes the picture brighter or darker, but it doesn't adjust Black Level like every other display in the world!!

And it has a bunch of stupid picture modes and other craziness which I deactivate. I always just use Standard.

And quite bizarrely, in addition the the Brightness control which should be Black Level there is also an additional control called... "Black Level". WTF?

And if I adjust that, it adjusts, wait for it......

White Level AND Black Level - think of a rectangle with black at one end and white at the other moving back and forth on a sliding scale. And this rectangle seems to be about 230 levels wide as opposed to the 219 it's supposed to be.

So adjusting this magical "Black Level" control that isn't Black Level, I can get white to cut at 235... but that also adjusts black down to about 9 rather than 16. Mad!!

Oh yeah - and it only seems to work on Standard too - if I try something like "Cinema" or whatever it's called, Black Level suddenly doesn't work in the same way!!

So I'm not saying the Zidoo is doing it correctly, but my Samsung thinks it is, my Finlux thinks it is, and most compellingly, my JVC thinks it is.

My Sony doesn't. But then My Sony doesn't know bupkus about how black and white level work!!

What the hell is happening, I'm afraid at this point, I really have no idea.

So endeth today's sermon.

 

Anyone know how to get in touch with Vincent Teoh from HDTVtest?

 

If he could explain this to me he'd definitely go up in my estimation

 

Joking aside...I'd post a poll with a test clip and ask people to take a pic....I'd bet it's not just a Sony that has the issue.

Don't forget, Sony supply over 90% of gear for the Film industry.....and, it does not like range mismatch.

 

Yep - I used Sony PVMs for many years in post production. Before that I used to use, and would ONLY use Sony cameras in production - in fact I still have a couple of PVMs and cameras here for old time's sake! - but they're PVMs, not tellies - a different beast entirely and essentially a completely different side of the business, particularly since they went flat.

You don't see an Android PVM (at least not in my day - not checked - hell - that'd take the biscuit!).

I'm not dissing Sony in any way* - but there is something odd here and I'm going to need to sleep on it to figure it out. Hellishly interesting, I'll give you that!

* but if Samsung ever started to support Dolby Vision the rest of the industry would be utterly SCREWED!

 

Is this helpful at all?

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/co...bration-software-thread.3175441/post-60432592

 

Makes for interesting reading, so thanks for sharing.

The issue being discussed here is that the SOC seems to be outputting a mixed range signal (White Level = Full, Black Level = Limited) for SDR on Sony TV's (and maybe others - I think @blenky confirmed the same issue on his LG) which is outside of normal AV specs.

It's more difficult to test for HDR than SDR..

 

I can't think of a way that it could send a mixed range, it can only send a flag to say Full, Limited or Default (default is limited for both RGB and yCbCr) - there's nothing in the HDMI spec to allow for a mixed range. The video itself is full range - the levels in the video go from 0-255 - which is what allows you to calibrate, and it's the AVI infoframe that defines whether the display interprets that as limited or full.

Here's a thought that just occurred overnight (as they usually do!):

Talking about stupid picture modes earlier - You're not using a picture mode that adds chroma to a black and white signal are you? Changing colour temperature?

What's interesting, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you're not seeing the full excursion to 255 are you?

This shouldn't happen because the test pattern is luma only, no chroma. But chroma in yCbCr extends to 240, not 235.

So for example if that pattern had a chroma element, and not every display will do this, you could see it extending to 240, feasibly beyond if calibration is slightly out.

I've never seen a TV add that headroom to a luma only pattern but then I've never seen a TV that defines contrast and brightness like these Sonys either.

It's a shame you don't have an HDFury vertex because that has an AVI infoframe injector and we could squirt infoframes at the Sony and see what it does (the AVI infoframe defines HDMI range, VIC, primaries etc)

**EDIT**

I just checked what the AVI infoframe that the Zidoo sends says for my Rec.709 white clip pattern and it's this:



Byte 7 is the one that includes HDMI Range and it's sending a Limited Range Flag.

 

Here you go: (even unplugged my amp and connected the Zidoo directly to the Sony - no custom edid) (tracks as it should playedback on a PC with the entire set as limited).

 

Bugger - ok, so it's not chroma overshoot doing it... Well, it was a good theory...

Processing.......

 

Ok, I've been reading back on our previous conversations on this and I think we got the answer right back in February without realising why or how.

I think the box is outputting pixel values in full range. And not partially - all the way from 0 to 255.

There is nothing in the HDMI spec about having to restrict pixel values in an HDMI signal if you want to send a Limited Range signal - all you should need to do is send the Quantisation byte in the AVI Infoframe with the correct value. And that's what the AML SOC does. The TV should then scale and clamp to 16-235.

However, content is mastered in limited range and players usually output limited range signals over HDMI (as in actual pixel values) as well as setting the Q byte to Limited.

So my Finlux and my JVC interpret the Q byte correctly and clamp to 16 & 235. My Samsung does the same, but as stated previously I see ringing there too, which is odd and I think symptomatic of the full range pixel signal.

The Sony also recognises the Q byte and clamps black to 16 but crucially doesn't clamp white - I think this is to do with allowing overhead - there's no other reason I can think it would do one and not the other.

So as far as the HDMI spec goes, it's technically not doing anything wrong but Sonys don't like it!

I now need a way to prove this since this may make it easier to solve as it's not doing some mad hybrid thing.

Possibly along the lines of sending a custom AVI Infoframe with the Q byte set to Full Range... Thank goodness for HDFury!

 

Bravo Mark!...and like I said, I don't this issue only effects Sony's.

 

As an aside about the overhead - my JVC has a similar function - it's called "Super White" and extends white to 255 - but it's switchable.

 

Did you mean Q byte set to Limited Range, if the soc is sending pixel values in full range? Just trying to wrap my head around it.

I assume we want all displays to clamp to 16-235, rather than convert/map/set flags as full range?

 

No, full range and then the display will also think it's full range and I can tell whether the pixel values are from 0 rather than 16. Pretty sure they are. But then I've said that before....

Yes - They should ideally honour what's in the AVI Infoframe - I'm not sure why the Sony doesn't other than to add a little headroom to luma in the same way that chroma does.

As you say - confusing - takes a bit to wrap your head around it. Much better when you don't have to think about stuff like this - but keeps it interesting eh?

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you got this, so, let's not give any competition an advantage - I won't take offence if you delete any or all replies to this convo

 

I still think this is a SOC issue so it's probably not relevant as it'll depend on their access to SDKs - but given that they don't seem to care about mishandled Dolby Vision metadata, CMv4.0, HDR handling or simple luma black level I don't think they'll care about this.

I created an almighty flap about luma levels in DV in the Dune thread months and months ago and that never got fixed, and worse - no-one there seemed arsed about it - They haven't got the basics right yet so I'm not too worried

 

So the upcoming firmware is that just to bring the other models to 1.2.25 that the Z9X 8K model has had for a while or will there be a new one for all models?