Subtitles do not work as they should (always or none but not forced only)

Discussion in 'HDD Media player(RTD 1619DR)' started by Franconian, Sep 8, 2021.

  1. Franconian

    Franconian Active Member

    I noticed a problem with my Z9X. My setting is

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Auto
    Forced subtitle --> Auto

    Sometimes it shows forced subtitles, sometimes it does not (may be flag issue on MKV) but sometimes that annoys me: It sometimes shows standard subtitles (no default flag and no forced flag) if there are no forced ones.

    When I set

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Off
    Forced subtitle --> Auto

    It does not show subs at all, not even forced ones.

    And: Forced subtitle --> Follow current audio track doesn’t make a difference

    How can I prevent that standard/full subtitles are shown automatically? Again, this only happens if there are no forced available. It then just picks the first full subtitle and sometime it does not.

    The annoying thing is, that I can only test files one single time. After they were started, the Zidoo knows this and remembers the last subtitle setting (even if I don’t switch subtitles). So I can’t change settings and try out the same movie again if if changes, is has to be a different file.

    See this for example.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    This has a German first audio track (default) and a English second audio track. The only subtitle was automatically activated despite the fact that it is not default or forced. In this example Forced subtitle --> Follow current audio was set.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
    DennisTheMenace likes this.
  2. Nicholas Hewitt

    Nicholas Hewitt Active Member

    This same thing happened to me with my Indiana Jones forced subtitles that disappeared... I still can't get them to show up. They were there till I changed a subtitle setting, then never came back.
     
  3. bob

    bob Active Member Zidoo TECH Supporter

    This settings.
    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Off
    Forced subtitle --> Auto
    Then when playing the video, the first subtitle is selected by default?
    Confirm that this video has not been played before?
    thanks
     
  4. Franconian

    Franconian Active Member

    No for this case! If "Default Language --> Subtitle --> Off" subtitles never play for me, even if there are forced ones.

    Yes I can confirm the video has not been played before. I experimented with a lot of test files yesterday, muxxed subtitles and experimented with default or forced or no setting, see below

    Forced subtitle --> Auto only works if Default Language --> Subtitle --> Auto (or specified language). But as I mentioned, if there are no forced subtitles on the file, it chooses the first subtitle track.

    I am using the latest 6.3.35 G.

    My examples / notes - I intentionally used the second English subtitle for this so I can exclude that it is triggered because of my selected German language or being the first track:

    ------------------


    Testfile 1 (duplicated/renamed files so each is played the first time only):

    - Audio 1 German
    - Audio 2 English
    - Subtitle 1 German (not default, not forced)
    - Subtitle 2 English (not default, not forced)

    Test 1-File 1a

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Auto
    Forced subtitle --> Auto

    > It shows German subtitle 1 automatically

    Test 2-File 1b

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> off
    Forced subtitle --> Auto

    > No subtitle at all

    Test 3-File 1c

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Auto
    Forced subtitle --> Follow current audio track

    > It shows German subtitle 1 automatically



    Test 2 (duplicated/renamed files so each is played the first time only):
    - Audio 1 German
    - Audio 2 English
    - Subtitle 1 German (not default, not forced)
    - Subtitle 2 English (default)

    Test 1-File 2a

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Auto
    Forced subtitle --> Auto

    > It shows German subtitle 1 automatically

    Test 2-File 2b

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> off
    Forced subtitle --> Auto

    > No subtitle at all

    Test 2-File 2c

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Auto
    Forced subtitle --> Follow current audio track

    > It shows German subtitle 1 automatically


    Test 3 (duplicated/renamed files so each is played the first time only):
    - Audio 1 German
    - Audio 2 English
    - Subtitle 1 German (not default, not forced)
    - Subtitle 2 English (forced)

    Test 3-File 3a

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Auto
    Forced subtitle --> Auto

    > It shows German subtitle 1 automatically

    Test 3-File 3b

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> off
    Forced subtitle --> Auto

    > No subtitle at all

    Test 3-File 3c

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Auto
    Forced subtitle --> Follow current audio track

    > It shows German subtitle 1 automatically


    -------------------

    As you can see, this example is the same like the one above with my pictures (different file). It automatically plays the first subtitle but it should never do this automatically because it was never forced/default.

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Off + Forced subtitle --> Auto is broken.


    Forced Subtitles seem only work if they: a) are the subtitle #1 and b) are in the same language as the audio track and c) if default language is on Auto and not off. In any other case it's a random hit or miss.

    This is a mayor issue for me. Can the developers check this?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  5. bob

    bob Active Member Zidoo TECH Supporter

    Yes.
    Forced subtitles:
    1.only work when subtitles are closed.
    2.And the video must have forced subtitles.

    3.The forced subtitle language in the video is the same as the forced subtitle language set
    so.
    Only this video can display forced subtitles
    Test 3 (duplicated/renamed files so each is played the first time only):
    - Audio 1 German
    - Audio 2 English
    - Subtitle 1 German (not default, not forced)
    - Subtitle 2 English (forced)


    But when your settings are like this, it is impossible to have forced subtitles.
    Because Forced subtitle are set to: Auto (same as system language)
    Your system language is German,but video forced subtitles is English.

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> off
    Forced subtitle --> Auto

    Settings Forced subtitle language:
    Auto: Same as system language;
    Off : not display forced subtitle;
    Follow current audio track: same to current audio language.


    I think the logic is reasonable.
    Do you have a better idea. We can use it for reference

    thanks
     
  6. Franconian

    Franconian Active Member

    Ok bob, I'm trying to understand this logic and I will try to reproduce it for me with a new test.

    So if I understand you, if I switch my sytem language to English test 3 should play and show the forced subtitle when default language subtitle is off.

    But this brings me to the main issue:

    Why is the German subtitle automatically shown in test 1 and why is the wrong subtitle (German) is shown in test 3?

    And I have another different example:


    - Audio 1 German
    - Audio 2 English
    - Sub 1 English
    - Sub 2 English
    - Sub 3 German (Forced)

    When I start this with

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Auto
    Forced subtitle --> Auto

    The Sub 1 English is shown! But It should show Sub 3 German Forced. English makes no sense because player is German and Audio 1 is German. English 1 should be never shown.

    I will try later what happenes when playing a copy of this file with:

    Default Language --> Subtitle --> Off

    My suggestion/idea:

    Many people use localized content and not every order of subtitles is sorted correctly (like lates my example which is straight from my UHD). BD/UHD disc players seems to have a function that always selects the correct forced subtitle, the Zidoo seems not to have this option yet.

    Another example:

    My system is German, but I have a Chinese audio with English forced subtitles. With the current situation these forced subtitles would not be shown to me unless I activate them manually, you said it yourself.


    Is is possible to implement a new subtitle option, that always activates a forced subtitle, no matter what language the audio and the subtitle language and no matter the system language is?
    Just:

    Check file >
    a) if forced is present > then activate
    b) if no forced > no subtitle at all.

    Or maybe advanced:

    Check file >

    a) if forced is present > then activate forced with same language as system language > if no forced with system language then fall back to first next forced in English language
    b) if no forced subtitle present> no subtitle at all.

    What do you think, would this be possible to implement?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
    DennisTheMenace likes this.
  7. Whitfield

    Whitfield Active Member

    Interesting thread. First off, kudos to @Franconian for his research and try-outs. Quite some time ago I spend a lot of time doing the same thing on the forced subtitles subject.

    To name two well know formats in which they're used, forced subtitles in (UHD-)BD and mkv differ not only in content but certainly in authoring, and the handling of them seems a perpetuum mobile in numerous discussions throughout years and years.
    In case of UHD-BD or BD, forced subtitles are authored to well-documented, mandatory specifications (flawed discs aside). Maybe that's why it appears to me that forced subs generally invoke more beef for debate when used in mkv.

    Within mkv, several flags and headers of a subtitle track can (should) make a player handle them at least differently, if not properly. The available flags (true/not true) that would seem directly relevant to the issue of this thread, are "Default track" and "Forced display". Major relevant headers obviously are "Language" and "Original language". The latter perhaps regretfully being not so familiar and properly deployed. It's in the first place proper usage, but also recognition, and way of interpretation of these flags and headers that make players do or don't do what you'd expect.

    Next to the much discussed "THE forced track" of a videofile in general, I hope that both Zidoo and mkv creators are aware of the fact that within a mkv container, multiple subtitletracks can be flagged as both "Default" and/or "Forced". I imagine that this can add tremendously to confusion on an already seemingly tricky job of multiple flags & headers interpretation and how to act on it.

    I hope that things once get sorted for mkv and there will be consensus at last on how to act. Actually, I hoped for this many years ago already.

    Not only as a part of my work, but also because of my aversion to most subs used in movies, I edit existing subtitles and/or create my home brews anyways. As for the use of forced subs, for each desired language I create a "FULL" and "FORCED ONLY" track. In mkv I mux every track without using any "forced" flag. And I tick only my "first choice" as "Default track". Should I want to use another I just pick it manually from the list. Works always. Moron-proof.
    In the early days of mediaplayers I did some subtitle re-authoring and remuxing of some files because other players behaved differently. Useless, in hindsight. Take a dozen players and you'll have 13 sorts of "abilities" when it comes to parsing, reading or composing metadata and the recognition & honouring of media handle-bars and ergonomics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  8. Franconian

    Franconian Active Member

    Thanks for the insight @Whitfield . Usually I don't use subs, thats why this issue that non-flagged subs are showing up is bothering me. Usually I keep them for the sake of completeness. But I once in a while I need them for foreign language (in my case not English or German), so it's handy if they show up alone in the middle of the movie when there is a line of Spanish for example. Now, If I would know each time, that there is a line of Spanish, then I would activate the partial-subs / forced subs manually (like I do with my X9S because it can not handle forced subs at all) but often I do not know. So I hear a foreign line, stop, activate sub, rewind, play. This is very annoying. And this is exactly like I must do now again: Deactivate the subs completely because otherwise random full subs like in my examples are shown so I must switch them off. Either way, I need to check first or need my hand on the remote to swich them off or on.

    On my PC with the MPC-HC player for examples it's working fine, like I suggested above: You can activate the subs or deactivate in general, and if you activate it automatically playes the forced subtitle - no matter which position, no matter which language your system, the audio or the subitle is. And this would be great if such mechanic could be implemented.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  9. Whitfield

    Whitfield Active Member

    I understand your issue. As for where MPC-HC always show the forced subs (I don't know the software well enough for it's handling of forced subs) I do wonder how it would behave if in mkv two or more subtitle-tracks

    • are flagged as forced, and/or
    • are a combination of non-forced and forced lines

    When you're hunting down on succes to proper handling of forced subtiles, acknowledging a working conjuction of proper authoring and circumstantial/personal settings in the menu is a first step. If not initially dictated by settings in it's subtitle menu and with the additional metadata that's carried within the videofile itself, how would any player know what to play and what not? BTW I find any use of "in what order subtitles tracks are authored" a bit lame, I must say.

    Earlier mentioned, forced subtiles can also be muxed together with the "regular" subtitles in one track. When you mux a track knowing it contains both unforced (regular) and forced lines, it's obvious that a set or not-set forced flag renders useless (BTW a lot of users unawarely rip & use SUPs from a such authored (UHD-)BD). It's up to each player to recognise such "partially forced" authored subtitles. And - maybe more important to the issue at hand in this thread - whether to display them or not is another decision that ideally should be based on what personal settings are set in a well-designed subtitle menu. Preferably fool proof and where each setting is accompanied by a clear description of what it means and would imply for other settings.

    Furthermore, maybe it could be wise to ALWAYS show (so, regardless of whatever menu settings) ALL present subtitles of a videofile in the subtitle-list when banging on the subtitle button. Where tracks with a forced flag (or maybe any other; think about eg. "Hearing impaired" or "commentary") are visibly ID'd as such. Gives the user more convenience and faster control, IMO.
     
  10. Nicholas Hewitt

    Nicholas Hewitt Active Member

    I second this. I have forced subtitles that play fine with MPC-HC, but Zidoo does not even see them so they're not even listed.
     
  11. bob

    bob Active Member Zidoo TECH Supporter


    Yes.
    Is this okay?
    thanks

    upload_2021-9-10_10-5-45.png

    upload_2021-9-10_10-6-33.png

    upload_2021-9-10_10-6-56.png
     
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  12. Franconian

    Franconian Active Member

    @bob Wow this is awesome! This could solve many problems, I spoke to a few other people in your German forum, and they have the same issue as I told above.

    If you implement this, I can already give you at least the German translation for this line:

    The first forced subtitle = Erster erzwungener Untertitel

    or a little more detailed:

    Always show first forced subtitle = Immer ersten erzwungenen Untertitel anzeigen
     
  13. bob

    bob Active Member Zidoo TECH Supporter

    OK,the next firmware will be updated.
    thanks
     
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  14. Franconian

    Franconian Active Member

    @bob I tried the new firmware 6.3.40 now and I can say, that the new setting is working now!

    But there is a small flaw:

    The forced subs are triggered but within the subtitle setting they are always marked as "off", see this example:

    [​IMG]

    So when the new setting "The first forced subtitle" is set, then within a video "Off" and the forced subtitle (#3 German Forced in my example) are acting the same.

    The problem is: Now you can't switch off the forced subtitles at all if you want.

    It would be more elegant if the new setting just selects the forced subtitle (like the other forced subtitle settings do and its marked with a checkmark) and Off would be completely off.
     
  15. Nicholas Hewitt

    Nicholas Hewitt Active Member

    Where is this new setting, and what does it do exactly?
     
  16. Franconian

    Franconian Active Member

    See #11.
     
  17. Franconian

    Franconian Active Member

    *Push*

    Do you think you guys can work on this @bob ?
     
  18. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner New Member

    Are there any news to that topic?
    On my Zidoo z1000pro I set "basic language" to "subtitles" "off".
    On the "Forced Subtitles" I can try each settings, but it shows always the whole subtitles.
    Is this a bug to be solved?
     
  19. K.W.H.

    K.W.H. New Member

    I have tried to explain to the "engineers" (developers) how the subtitles are supposed to work but I honestly think there is a HUGE language barrier or they really don't want to fix it.

    They almost fix it when they added "default" flag support but there is no real support for "forced" flags...which IMHO is far more important than the default flag. Also, and this is real important, they cannot treat BDMV and/or ISO the same as MKV for the flags. MKV needs the flags to tell the player what the subs are (default, forced, or BOTH) in BDMV/ISO the default flag is not really needed as the default language set is the way that player determines what subs to use and if they are on or off. If your default language is ENG and your movie audio is GER then the ENG subs are supposed to be enabled.
     

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